Healthypages

We can say “NO” to swine flu – any flu

Discussion in 'General – Faiths' started by Principled, Apr 28, 2009.

  1. Principled

    Principled Well-Known Member

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    Hey V,

    You came sailing in here while I was composing my post to Myarka! ;)

    And why not? This is after all the Religion / Faiths > General – Faiths pages!

    Love and peace,

    Judy
     
  2. Fudge

    Fudge New Member

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    Myarka well put.

    Now .......

    Had to quote that this as it is a known fact, that even the Swine Flu has been around before, let alone the Spanish Flu, Australian Flu, etc, etc, these things come in waves, peaks and troughs, as do other virus's, sickness, it's just part of the pattern of life.

    There are a few documented 'spontanious' healing, but they do tend to be be in the distant past, plus documentation seems to be a bit patchy as well, I do agree it can happen but this must'nt give false hope to the many millions of people who actually do have something wrong with them, who may need a simple course of antibiotics or an op which would help them to become healthy again. (that is if they have access to the necessary resources)

    There are certain diseases/illnesses which cannot be 'cured', you just have to live with it, nature will take it's course, the last thing that person needs to hear is someone telling them well I cured mine in a few days, the question needs to be asked did they actually have the same illness, with the same symptoms, etc, etc.

    It would be a fabulous world if all hospitals and support staff could shut up shop and say well you can all be healed in a few days, if you believe in x, y or z, you better go to that building x, or that building y and they will look after you and heal you, you'll be better in a few days as a book or so and so told me so - so it must be true.

    Oh well if you believe this - well good for you, but I live in the real world which really can be hard at times, but on the other hand amazing things do happen all the time.

    Fudge
     
  3. Principled

    Principled Well-Known Member

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    Hi Fudge,

    I can quite understand where you are coming from! And if I had not experienced first hand (all my life) the practical operation of the healing system called Christian Science, I too would be as skeptical as you are!

    People think I'm trying to push a religion at them - I'm not. It's simply a whole different way of thinking, which is God-based, rather than matter-based. It involves a change of consciousness. It is called Science because it is based on repeatable, demonstrable spiritual laws. When correctly applied and understood, it works. There is not a 100% success rate, (doctors don't have those either) because often people's fears, prejudices (or closed minds!) get in the way. (After all, there is a constant, proveable science of mathematics but people still make errors!)

    But there are tens of thousands of documented healings from the past 120+ years, in the Christian Science periodicals and our Mother Church in Boston holds affadavits, X-rays etc. Interestingly, we are always ignored whenever anyone does an investigation into healing through spiritual means. I guess we've just kept too quiet about it over the decades as there is huge hostility and misunderstanding. However, I had to smile at your comments which were the opposite of a woman's, last March, who was looking through a book of a collection of healings at a MBS exhibition and she turned on me demanding to know why we were letting Jade Goody die - why hadn't we told her about Christian Science? If someone had told her, we would have been accused of giving her false hope. You're dammed if you do and you're damned if you don't! :confused:

    People who are living full and active lives after being given up by the medical profession and told that there was no hope, will not agree with your statement that, "there are certain diseases/illnesses which cannot be 'cured', you just have to live with it" (or die with it!) A friend who is a CS practitioner (someone who prays for others) was telling me of a lady in a hospice with terminal cancer who was given Mary Baker Eddy's book Science and Health. She left the hospice, asked my friend to pray with her and was very soon completely clear.

    Here is a link to another cancer healing by a former HP member:
    http://www.healthypages.co.uk/forum/showpost.php?p=381007&postcount=17

    I agree and I'm not trying to do that. This is a thread on the Religion/Faiths pages to encourage people to protect themselves metaphysically from getting ill in the first place and to pray for the world! There is a thread about precautions against swine 'flu on the medical pages - but this is one on the General - Faiths pages! ;)

    If you're interested in reading more healings, I have collected quite a few together on the thread "Healing through the Christ Consciousness" on the Christianity pages and even if you were to to only read the links I've put on this thread, you would get a glimpse of the awesome power of God.

    Love and peace,

    Judy
     
  4. Fudge

    Fudge New Member

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    Now reading through your post what struck me as the most interesting was:-

    "MBS exhibition and she turned on me demanding to know why we were letting Jade Goody die - why hadn't we told her about Christian Science? If someone had told her, we would have been accused of giving her false hope. You're dammed if you do and you're damned if you don't!"

    The question I ask myself if Jade had been a CS would she had died or not? Of course we will never know the answer. If Jade had become a CS would she have got cancer, would she have been cured if she signed up as a CS once she knew she had cancer? Again we will never know.

    As for living with health problems (which could be minor or major) millions of people do and just go on with their lives and not actually die straight away (but we all do eventually). Who are we to judge if someone lives a short or a long time, are considered sick or not? I'm not going to go into detail but most people will get the drift.

    As for responding in the Religion / Faiths page, it is an open forum for everyone to respond, not everyone has to agree, we are all free to challenge and put our point of view across, I dont find it necessary to quote from other sources all the time, I just write what I think and feel as an individual at this moment in time.

    Fudge

    P.S. It was the title of your thread which caught my attention
     
    #24 Fudge, May 2, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: May 2, 2009
  5. myarka

    myarka New Member

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    As the forum says, this is about faith. We all have faith, we all have strong faith, but where we direct our faith differs. Some may grow up in a particular faith and evolve to another and mature to another. But we all have faith.

    I know some say they've lost faith, but what they mean is that they've lost faith in what they had before. We have strong faith there will be another day tomorrow, some evern have faith their favourite TV programme will be aired, but we all have faith.

    Now this discussion can only be argued from our own point of faith, and that's the problem. Others cannot see things the way we do, our faith is like a foreign language. So in a way these discussions will become a cycle of claim and denial.

    So let's appreciate that there are different views about the nature of disease because I don't think HP should be about winning an argument, but about learning from our fellow companions.

    There is such a wealth of learning outside our own beliefs and it's good to know what foundations of faith others hold to.

    For myself, it doesn't make me any less spiritual because I don't believe in a monotheistic God, or because I don't believe in spirit guides. But it would be nice to be able to share what I do believe without being put into a box of an unbeliever or a sceptic or whatever box you put people into that don't share your views. There is a world, a universe out there that is far greater than all the wisdom and intellect that has ever been exhibited on this earth. We all have been given glimpses of the light, and we may not all be able to link them up, but mine is no less valid than yours.

    So IMO it doesn't matter if there's swine flu or not, it's the nature of nature, the battle of the genome. Is mankind the master of the genome? I don't know, but what I do know is that at the molecular level we are all the same. When we die, our molecules are cycled throughout the earth and we become reborn, in other plants, animals and other living organisms. Therefore we are part of the unity of the earth, which is part of the unity of the universe, which is part of the unity of something that none of us comprehend. But through all this we have the spirit of humanity and I believe that above all things we should love our neighbour as oursevles. Not one of us can claim to have fulfilled that aim, because we will always put qualification and predjudice in the way first.

    Perhaps when we've fed all the poor, protected the innocent, provided homes for the homeless and educated all children, then perhaps might be the right time to debate the nature of disease.

    Myarka
     
  6. Fudge

    Fudge New Member

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    Myarka well expressed.

    I wish I had your use of language and expression :)

    Fudge
     
  7. Venetian

    Venetian Active Member

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    That happens to be my own particular interest, the last bit about praying for the world. It's my long-standing background so I resonate with that. There may be individual reasons mortals can't know about why one person can be healed by spiritual means, and another not; but I do believe in the overall power of prayer (or whatever methods people use) to help or to reverse a large-scale situation. :)

    V
     
  8. Venetian

    Venetian Active Member

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    From a spiritual perspective:
    The protagonist of the Gospels healed untold numbers of people, and according to the Gospel or writings from the Aramaic discovered by Edmond Szekely, he did go on to tell people the nature of the causes of disease and how to avoid or cure them by practical means.

    Yet he also said: "The poor ye have with you always." (He didn't really mean the materialistically 'poor' IMHO, but that there are times when it's important to go up a hill and contact God for yourself and see to your own spirituality, as people in more need are there always.) He didn't wait until there were no 'poor'. :eek:

    From a scientific perspective:
    Where would we be if scientifically-minded people did not pick up the gauntlet of debating - or helping to discover - the nature of forces such as magnetism, or how to harness electricity for our use, or the nature of matter, or how to use solar and wind energy, or - the nature (and cures) of this or that disease, which overall often links in to the nature of disease in general. What would we do if they waited until all social wrongs are righted? (Who'd even be chosen to raise the flag and say that job is done? Which political belief-system does that?)

    No - individuals pursue their own calling according to their own inner timetables to aid humanity. There are no steps 1 to 10, with somebody telling us we can't do step 6, since we haven't accomplished step 3! That would be a limitation imposed upon us; thankfully there's no such thing.

    V
     
    #28 Venetian, May 2, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: May 2, 2009
  9. myarka

    myarka New Member

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    IMO to accept the world order and prioritise above the feeding of the poor is to be complicit in their starvation. So I would say learning to run comes after learning to walk.

    We are told that world problems are resolved by the catalysts of war and space research. But we have a higher catalyst in front of our noses, hunger and freedom.

    We now live an age where social ills can be set right, it is probably the first time in history that this is achievable. But it has a cost to the western world, we will have to take a hit to our standard of living.

    Today I was behind a pink Hummer stretched limo in traffic, that said it all.

    Myarka.
     
  10. Venetian

    Venetian Active Member

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    Hi Myarka,

    We'll have to let that one rest, as I can see your background and beliefs - I just realised what one of your links is. But civilisations, so far, have risen and fallen. As one nation rises, another gets poorer. We fling - or lovingly render - physical assistance at untold problems ... and the problems will remain or re-emerge elsewhere or later. That's because the fundamental calibre of human nature is not raised, leavened or transformed by physical aid.

    Again, it's like the subject of treating dis-ease. You do indeed use physical means to mend a broken arm. But why was another human perhaps so angry in the first place as to attack and break it? Problems go on, and on, and on, resurfacing elsewhere, when only treated by material means. If we don't see to consciousness, the power of consciousness, how it is limiting humanity now and how it can raise humanity by higher consciousness, then "solving human problems" is like a hamster running around his wheel. On and on. Successfully solve one hunger-problem, and another emerges. (Which is not to say we still don't run that wheel and help others.) But it's never a lasting solution. Human nature has it that things go wrong again. In 1976 I was in the middle of the Bangladesh starvation - caused by political motives, by human nature untransformed.

    That's what Jesus meant by, "The poor ye have with you always." Interesting words - from Him! Ultimate solutions are in getting out of the loop - in not solving maya with maya. That's why he cured the sick, yes, but more importantly then went on to lay a spiritual background for oneness with God: the ultimate healing.

    We'll have to agree to disagree on that, and it's slightly off-topic. Anyhow, your way by you, and my way by others is a nice double-whammy solution, I'd say. :)

    V
     
  11. Thaxter

    Thaxter New Member

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    Spanish Flu and Christian Science

    Principled -- you wrote:
    A few years ago, I came across a book that was a compilation of Christian Scientists’ experiences during World War 1 and as I scanned through, towards the end, I came across one after another testimonies of healing of what people called Spanish ‘Flu.

    Do you remember the name of the book? I'd really love to read it. I am trying to overcome my sense of fear about this flu news, and have decided to plunge back into my study of CS.

    Thanks!
     
  12. Principled

    Principled Well-Known Member

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    Good – glad to know that you all know that you are all on the Religion/Faiths pages – it’s just that from posts 9-17 (with the exception of Binah’s) I thought you all thought you were in the General Discussions or something…..

    Do you remember this?

    Myarka, I’ve always admired and respected your great sense of altruism and the need to protect the vulnerable and dispossessed. Again, I would say that though at the moment no-one has been able to do it, Jesus fed thousands with a few loaves and fishes (and yes, I truly do believe he did and that one day, when someone once again achieves the full understanding of spiritual substance that he did, we will be able to do it again) He was no aesthetic with his head in the clouds – he saw a human need and he met it, whether that need was for food, healing, redemption or resurrection! That to me is true spirituality.

    Yes, I’ve been talking about physical healing on this thread, but then it’s about swine flu for goodness sake – oink!

    However, you have poverty at the top of your agenda. Good. I’ve just put “poverty” into the search box on www.spirituality.com and there are 109 articles on that one website about how to approach eliminating it through spiritual means. We don't ignore any inharmonious conditions. Often, prayer brings ideas that open up new avenues. Sometimes, it will bring a new job as it did when I went through a poverty experience. Other times, someone who is starving might look down at their feet and find a £5 note lying there etc.

    I remember a radio interview where a Christian Scientist was in Kenya and feeling troubled by the sense of hopelessness caused by a three year draught. He continually prayed about true substance and the source of all supply and one day in the market, met a local church minister who was buying supplies for the orphans he homed. He invited the American to come back to the orphanage, where they prayed together in the little corrugated-roofed chapel. As they finished, a strange sound started – it was rain. That was the end of the draught and over the next couple of years too, all the children were found homes. To me, that is practical spirituality.
    (And before you say it was just coincidence, well, all I can say is that when I pray, coincidences happen. When I don't, they don't! ;)

    This is a story I just love which shows the practicality and effectiveness of scientific prayer:

    Love and peace,

    Judy
     
  13. Principled

    Principled Well-Known Member

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    Thaxter - this is a pleasant surpise - welcome to HP! :)

    I managed to find the book - CHRISTIAN SCIENCE WAR TIME ACTIVITIES (1922) By: The Christian Science War Relief Committee (not to be confused with another with a similar name of the Second World War of 1939-194).

    Quite honestly Thaxter, that particular book is not the answer! Apart from the odd bits, it's about as interesting as watching paint dry. It has mainly countless reports from relief committees and rest centres.

    There are some great discussions on swine flu on www.tmcyouth.com - have a look there.

    Love and peace,

    Judy
     
  14. myarka

    myarka New Member

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    It's true that the Jesus as described in the Bible healed the sick as a metaphore of the healing man needed to be reunited with God. The same Jesus who preached that we should love our neighbour as our selves, and that it is harder for a rich man to enter the kindom of heaven than a camel to pass through an eye of a needle.

    The Jesus of the Bible is a wonderful example of how we should life, but he also taught the we should live in the age/time/culture that we live in "Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and to God the things which are God's".

    So I think the teaching is very clear, love and compassion of our fellow man kind. Our spiritual richness is by far greater than our meterial richness. In every age we're give oportunity to exercise our compassion and love. No time in history has the world had the resource to deal with inequalities as we have today.

    In answer to V........

    Human nature is complex, we can say there is good in all, we can say the is also evil in all, "there but for the grace of God go I". But one thing history has shown, world movements cause change, some for good, some for bad. Therefore, there is no reason why there can be no world movement to end hunger.

    Is my view off topic?

    IMO no, because while the world debates swine flu, the world turns its back on the poor.

    Namaste,
    Myarka.
     
  15. Venetian

    Venetian Active Member

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    Hi Myarka,

    To be quite honest, I hadn't known till this thread, but "the poor" seems to be your measuring rod or 'main thing'. And to be honest, other people have their own prime concern, which doesn't mean neglecting or not caring about the poor. There are many many causes we can take up: it would be awful if all other good causes were neglected because everybody onlly looked at one. You may not discover this throughout your lifetime, but believe me, human problems are not permanently solved with human solutions. They'll just repeat, and repeat and repeat.

    Your few lines on Jesus portray a person-loving man who helped, gave, and rendered. From the Gospels, he did all that - but he also had a simply immeasurable oneness with the Divine Source; and his main interest was to teach spirituality - the kingdom (consciousness) of God (within us). First he helped, then he taught people how to transform themselves so that they could help themselves by inner transformation and self-purification.

    He didn't come just to eternally hand out loaves and fishes off lorries for thirty-three years, now did he! He had higher priorities. If he'd done that for 33 years, they'd still have been waiting for more when he'd gone. No, he came to teach people self-transformation.

    Yes, "world movements cause change". And then they are gone. Because people haven't changed. Civilisations rise and fall - so far. Let's somehow get rid of all poverty then - such as in North Korea which we can't even enter unless it were by military invasion BTW? Once there's no poverty, what do we do about the hedonism among the newly non-poor? the warfare? the politicking (all these things leading back into poverty again, as it happens)?

    It's a hamster wheel, but I can see you won't agree. Also, by now, I really do think poverty and the subject of poverty, and curing it by physical means only is off-topic, though you are free to continue, and I truly do respect your desire to help others of course. :)

    Hi Judy,

    I'm not in CS, but would just like to say that I agree with every word, including the quotes, in your post # 32 . It's precisely how I see, or try to always see, the world, and how I believe all good solutions are arrived at. :) We appear to be navigating the same ocean here. ;)

    V
     
    #35 Venetian, May 3, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: May 3, 2009
  16. Principled

    Principled Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for your post Myarka - indeed there has never been a better time than now for an increase in compassion, unselfishness, altruism, encouragement and above all, practical spirituality. In one of her books, Mary Baker Eddy begins the Preface with these words, which I'm sure you would agree with:

    A certain apothegm of a Talmudical philosopher suits my sense of doing good. It reads thus: "The noblest charity is to prevent a man from accepting charity; and the best alms are to show and to enable a man to dispense with alms." (Miscellaneous Writings ix)

    She also identified the quote below as the secret of her life work:

    God has not given us vast learning to solve all the problems, or unfailing wisdom to direct all the wanderings of our brothers' lives; but He has given to every one of us the power to be spiritual, and by our spirituality to lift and enlarge and enlighten the lives we touch.
    Philip Brooks


    Would that be the "infinite ocean of Love" then? :p

    From an article by MBE on the three stages of baptism:

    The baptism of Spirit, or final immersion of human consciousness in the infinite ocean of Love, is the last scene in corporeal sense.... After this, man's identity or consciousness reflects only Spirit, good,...forever permeated with eternal life, holiness, heaven. (Miscellaneous Writings 205)

    Thanks V for a really beautiful post, of which I too agreed with every word! Jesus mission was so much higher than just feeding the poor and healing the sick. Those were simply the natural outcomes of a life at one with Reality, a life freed from the slavery of material beliefs and living in the freedom and dominion of Spirit.

    Love and peace,

    Judy
     
  17. myarka

    myarka New Member

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    I wholeheartedly believe that the greatest gift of charity is empowerment.

    Myarka.
     
  18. Thaxter

    Thaxter New Member

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    War Time Relief

    Principled -- thanks for the tip! I will also check out the link. :)
     
  19. Fudge

    Fudge New Member

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    After hearing so much about Mary Eddy Baker I decided to goggle and came up with the following:-

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Baker_Eddy

    In addition I found some info regarding Spanish Flu:-

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_flu

    Now, I find it a little hard to understand MBE’s - Notable ideas - Spiritual Healing and the Rejection of Medical Drugs, Hygiene, and Procedures. .

    I would be grateful if someone could explain why/how this would work regarding basic hygiene and procedures? I can understand someone rejecting medical drugs, as I've done this myself, but rejecting hygiene does take me by surprise.

    As for my faith, I keep loosing and/or gaining as I keep questioning everything.

    Fudge
     
  20. Venetian

    Venetian Active Member

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    Hi Fudge,
    I can't comment on what struck you from the Wiki entry as I'm not in CS. What I do notice (without any surprise) is that the Wikipedia article is the focus of a tug of war, and may at any time (as it will be changing over time) be biassed. That's the nature of Wikipedia. See the Discussion tab to the article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Mary_Baker_Eddy and take a glance to get an idea of the disagreements behind the scenes (common to possibly-controversial Wiki entries).

    Personally I only use Wiki references because they're handy, being freely available online. Well, actually, so many people partake in them that they often are better and more detailed, more insightful, than you'll get elsewhere. But the neutrality of Wiki entries is always worth questioning, if it's an entry with very different possible PoVs.

    V
     

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