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Time - or eternity?

Discussion in 'Scientific Matters' started by Principled, Aug 10, 2009.

  1. Principled

    Principled Well-Known Member

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    This is a recent article on the metaphysics of time on www.spirituality.com and I thought some here would find it interesting. I have no idea where to put it though - Scientific, Philosophy or Spirituality. It sort of belongs in all three, so mods, please move it if you like.


    Time masters
    This is from the introduction:
    I met Dr Doyle once when he was a speaker at a youth holiday camp I was helping organise while he still worked for NASA. He really stretched your concepts of life and the universe – one of the most spiritual persons I’ve ever known. I remember him saying for instance, something like, "When we are reading a book what are we doing?" and explaining that if you look at it from a science point of view then you are examining wood pulp and ink and therefore you are missing the whole point because what we are actually doing is reading ideas. He translates everything back into the spiritual realm - the realm of ideas.

    I also remember how he once tried to add up to infinity! It’s impossible. He then realised that Jesus had already made the great statement of infinity when he said “I and my Father are one”.

    Here are some excerpts from an article titled "The metaphysics of space and time" which was an interview with Dr Doyle. Here, he is asked whether there is a link between the eternal realm and what appears as a human state of material things and he replies:
    Doyle also said:
    There's a really interesting little pamphlet called Time Space Eternity (PM me to know where to get it in the UK) and this is from the second article - Conversation with Geoffrey Barratt:

    Judy
     
  2. Energylz

    Energylz Moody-rator ©
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    Interesting read Judy. I'll have to re-read it several times I think just to get it to sink in. :)

    How about the concept that the only time that exists is "Now"? There is no past or future. ;)

    All Love and Reiki Hugs
     
  3. scommstech

    scommstech Active Member

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    I am inclined to believe that the present past and future all exist at the same time. We on the earth plane are in the present. Spirit can move across. I think of it as a school with many levels of class progressions.
    They all exist at the same time, but we as students are tied to one class, at a time. An outsider however can see that all the class levels exist together.
     
  4. Principled

    Principled Well-Known Member

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    Well, it's got to be an easier read than “Quantum Uncertainty Considerations for Gravitational Lens Interferometry." :confused:
    Totally agree. The present is all that exists. Mary Baker Eddy wrote something similar in 1903: "We own no past, no future, we possess only now."

    I met a very spiritual woman again a couple of months ago. When I first met her 8 years ago, she must have been about 80, but just shone with love and spirituality. When I met her again, she looked about 60. I know my CS Teacher told us that she'd met someone who looked about 30 but who was actually in her 70's. This woman moment by moment lived in the now and pondered on being made new every moment. That's got to be the best beauty treatment ever - the beauty of holiness!

    Judy
     
  5. Energylz

    Energylz Moody-rator ©
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    Hey don't knock it. I quite like reading about quantum theories and principles. I've got some really good books on it. ;)

    Time is one of the things I've been considering quite deeply lately.
    Lot's of thoughts on this and notes made. Just got to correlate them all together and consider them in conjunction with the scientific side of things.

    In simple terms, my latest understanding that there is only the single point of "Now" and that that point is, in itself, infinite and all encompassing.
    As for describing what past and future is, I only have the concept in my head and have yet to put it into words.... maybe soon. ;)

    All Love and Reiki Hugs
     
  6. Principled

    Principled Well-Known Member

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    In case you were wondering why I'm resurrecting a 4 year old thread, the answer is that this afternoon I heard Dr Laurence Doyle (an astrophysicist) talking about time on the weekly Sentinel Radio programme.

    He's on first and it's a really interesting listen! The title is, "Time - is it a fact of life?" It's only on (at that link) till the evening of Friday 13th Sept, but I will post the permanent link when it appears.

    JSH-Online audio*/*Christian Science

    Love and peace,

    Judy
     
  7. Energylz

    Energylz Moody-rator ©
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    Oooo, sounds intersting Judy.... I'll try and get to listen to that later if I can.

    :)
     
  8. Paul Crick

    Paul Crick Healthypages Moderator
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    Hi Judy

    It sort of ties in with my understanding of the oneness of consciousness, in which there is not time or distance, because all is one, it also ties in with the way that people often take something out of time as in placing a judgement within an experience, to keep it alive long after the experience has happened and no longer exists outside of the consciousness that is keeping it alive as an inner conflict, which once healed no longer creates a distraction within the consciousness of the creator of the conflict.

    To my understananding, eternity doe not exist within the oneness of consciousness as there is only the Now.
     
  9. Principled

    Principled Well-Known Member

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    Hi Paul,

    Glad you were able to relate to the concepts in this interview. I've always thought that our understanding is far closer than you realise, but you let yourself be put off by "religious" terminology. ;)

    I so agree with you about how people hold onto the hurts and wrongs of the past - it breaks my heart when I see the mothers of children who have been murdered, for instance, still full of bitterness and pain decades later. They are only hurting themselves, not the perpetrator.

    When we speak of eternity in Christian Science, we mean timelessness. I found another couple of articles on this subject, also featuring Doyle. Here's what he says in one:

    And I think this statement just sums it all up:

    Man is the idea of Spirit; he reflects the beatific presence,illuming*the universe with light. Man is deathless, spiritual. He is above sin or frailty. He does not cross the barriers of time into the vast forever of Life, but he coexists with God and the universe.—Mary Baker Eddy (Science and Health 266)

    Love and peace,

    Judy
     
  10. Energylz

    Energylz Moody-rator ©
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    Just listened to it quickly. I generally agree with what is said... would like to listen to it again, but not sure I'll get time before it's removed, as I've got to head out.

    If only they did a transcription of it. :eek:

    All Love and Reiki Hugs
     
  11. Principled

    Principled Well-Known Member

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    They have, they have - just found it! :cool:

    A matter of time*/*Christian Science Sentinel
     
  12. Energylz

    Energylz Moody-rator ©
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    Thanks for that Judy, I've been able to digest it a little more now. :003:

    I kind of know what he's saying, but I think some things are missed when I compare it to my own understanding.

    I would say that time can be objective or subjective depending on the context it's used in. I would also say that they only seem to be talking about the passage of time (and how it's measured) especially with reference to us being in a 4D space time. I prefer to look at it as a 5D space time, with our usual 3 dimensional space and 2 dimensions for time; one of which is the passage of time, and the other being the points of time within that (every moment of Now!) of which only one exists at any one time of course. :D

    I find where he says this:

    a flawed logic (maybe a mistake on his part?).

    He uses the example of the sum of mistakes not making a correct answer, but that's clearly obvious as they are opposite, yet the sum of correct answers would make a correct answer. Likewise the sum of Now, are the measurement of the passage of time (the 5th dimension being the parts of the 4th), but they rely on the other dimensions to be able to do the summing.. i.e. the measurement of passage of time requires the material world. That therefore doesn't mean that some divine realm (if such a place exists) is without time because it has no material, as it does, in my understanding, exist always with the point in time that is Now. I guess that would equate to saying that such a realm would not exist in the past or the future, but exists for the present moment only; so to exist in such a realm would be to be free of the past and have no concerns for the future... a place of complete awareness of what IS.
    The fact that the Now point of time has no size (or zero size) because it is not a passage of time, ties in with the understanding that zero and infinity are intrinsically linked, so the point of time that is Now, is the existence of infinite time. It also tells us that the measurement of time is what is linked to the material world as the material is needed to make measurements, yet everything in the material world exists only in the now that there is.

    I agree with him when he says that you cannot have measurement without consciousness, because measurement is a concept of consciousness and how consciousness relates to the material, or becomes attached to it at one point and follows it to another point. By freeing ourselves of such attachments, we find ourselves without the need to measure and being more present in the point of time that is Now. So when he agrees that "Time disappears", I see that he is saying the measurement of time is disappearing, not the present moment; and I think that's important because the time that is Now is often forgotten about when talking about time, yet is so easily discarded along with it when talking about places where no time exists or is not relevant. The Now is the one dimension of time that will always exist and does not need to be measured or exist along with material.

    I see the interview was back in 2002. It would be interesting to see how his ideas have moved on (if at all) since then and since quantum theories have progresses so much since then.

    All Love and Reiki Hugs
     
  13. Paul Crick

    Paul Crick Healthypages Moderator
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    Hi Giles

    I perceive the Now and now moment of time as to separate and distinct things, although we can perceive the now moment of time in relation to when things are happening or have happened in relation to the clock passage of time, I perceive our Now life experience as one life experience, not a collection of separate life experiences. ;)
     
  14. Principled

    Principled Well-Known Member

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    I know this was to Giles, but just wanted to say that I'm guessing that your view is roughly what Doyle meant Paul. A mortal measurement of time (even of now0 is not the same as the eternal and infinite Now! ;)

    Judy
     
  15. Principled

    Principled Well-Known Member

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    Hi Giles - sorry I've not come back sooner, but ran out of "mortal limitations' (time!) :eek:

    Obviously, I cannot speak for Doyle, especially as I know nufink whatsoever about physics but I'll have a go where it makes sense to me![

    I know that Doyle is fond of explaining that time is not in the watch - does that help? (he also says that the maths is not in the chalk on the blackboard)

    Now you've really lost me Giles! :eek: Actually, the original article SCIENTISTS OF REALITY*/*The Christian Science Journal
    that I opened this thread with some years ago is now online. It's an interview with two physicists (who are also Christian Scientists)

    That sounds up your street Giles! :p Yeesh. :rolleyes:

    Now is this is the sort of thing you mean by the dimensions?
    Can't say I really understand him either! But I'm really glad you agree with most of it!

    Again, I can't answer for him, but I am guessing that most of his ideas on metaphysics have come from CS, not quantum theory. This is a "timeless" healing he had as a youngster and when you've had experiences like that, you obviously discern reality in a totally different way.
    I often think of the time my dog was attacked by another dog and there was a large hole under his ear, on his neck. I told the dog that it had never happened, that he'd always been in a state of perfection (that sounds daft I know, but in the higher consciousness I think of as Reality, nothing discordant can take place and matter isn't real, but simply thought objectified). The next day I couldn't tell which ear the hole had been under. I searched everywhere, but flesh and hair was all filled in and had it not been for the blood-stained cotton wool in the bin, I would have started to think I dreamed it all! ;)

    Judy
     
    #15 Principled, Sep 22, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 22, 2013
  16. Energylz

    Energylz Moody-rator ©
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    Hi Judy

    I understand that, though what he's saying is that time itself has no substance, it's just a conceptual thing we measure via the measurments of material things. As such, time simply doesn't exist except as a concept, but then neither do most things. ;)


    Well, as you posted later in your reply, space has it's uppy-downy, lefty-righty, forwardy-backwardy dimensions which gives us 3 dimensions, and then they typically just say that time is the 4th dimension because 3d space is closely linked to time e.g. as time passes then space changes. My point was that the passage of time relies on looking at something at one point in time and measuring the change at another point in time, so that 4th dimension of time itself contains another dimension which are the points of time. A bit like the difference between you drawing a point with a pencil and drawing a line... the point representing the now moment and the line representing the past and future.

    In quantum physics, there's something called the Uncertainty Principle, and typically this is explained as being: "we cannot know the exact location of something, and at the same time know the momentum/velocity/speed of it". To know the latter requires that we measure it's position over time and is why we express these things like "metres per second" because we have measured how much space has been covered by it in one second (for example). The former we can only measure at a single point of time, but if we measure exactly where something is at a particular point in time, we cannot know where it's going because the point in time is not enough for us to measure such things as speed (the Now moment does not have a size to it). Likewise if we're measuring the speed of something, that is done over a period of time, so we cannot say exactly where it is, because that requires a single point of time.

    So, my point was that in his interview, he seems to talk mainly about the passage of time, rather than what exists in the "now" moments i.e. limiting himself to 4 dimensions rather than 5, in my understanding.


    See above. :D

    Say what you don't understand and I'll try and put it in as simple terms as possible. :)


    Perhaps you passed into another parallel universe which only seemed a short time, but was a longer time for your dog and he had time to heal? Oooo! :dft003:

    All Love and Reiki Hugs
     
  17. Principled

    Principled Well-Known Member

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    Yup, totally understand (and agree)

    I'm still in space though with the "uppy-downy, lefty-righty, forwardy-backwardy dimensions " - but don't worry, it's not worth trying to explain further! :D

    The pencil was helpful - thanks.

    Right. I'm quite sure he understands the "now" moment, after having an experience like his broken finger mending instantaneously like that. I think the interview was more about trying to help the likes of me (bear with little brain) overcome the mortal view of the limitations of time

    Huh - does the principle of mathematics know 2+2=5? Yet, if that had been accidentally written on a blackboard, you would have been able to see with with your eyes and yet, it was never true, it never happened - 2+2 was never 5!

    Love and peace,

    Judy
     
  18. scommstech

    scommstech Active Member

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    Could it be that dimensions/parallel universes are actually limitless concepts, just as numbers and ideas are limitless. Could what we interpret as time really be our consciousness passing between dimensions....In the case of the dog, in the new dimension the dog was never damaged in the first place.
     
    #18 scommstech, Oct 9, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 9, 2013

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