Healthypages

The Old Testament Vs The New Testament

Discussion in 'General – Faiths' started by Whispers, Mar 1, 2006.

  1. oblivionlord

    oblivionlord New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2006
    Messages:
    40
    Likes Received:
    0
    RE: The Old Testament Vs The New Testament

    Dispite whether the tree is 'food'...dispite whether the tree is 'home'...dispite whether the tree is 'a perfect focal point'...these attributes do not change the tree. The tree is all of these things, regardless of the descriptions by the individuals who see it. The tree remains unchanged.

    The Bible, however, changes immediatly whether you interpret it literaly as opposed to spiritualy. Because of this, we're left with the difficulty of determining what is historical...what is moral...and what is spiritual. Since we can not prove nor disprove what is what, we're led to look back at the time when the Bible was written. Stories, such as this, were typically written in a grandious style and were created to evoke ideas and morals within the listener whether the characters within the story were gods, monsters or humans. These stories have metamorphosized into the literal translation which causes these debates. So how are we to look at the teachings of the Bible: How they were intended to be read? Or how we've changed them?
     
  2. Venetian

    Venetian New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2003
    Messages:
    10,398
    Likes Received:
    10
    RE: The Old Testament Vs The New Testament

    Precisely. Welcome to the club. That's exactly right, and it makes it no easier at all to say "don't interpret". In the philosophy of hermaneutics, that's what we're doing all the time. As you read my words now, you are interpreting them and exactly what I mean, in your way. It's inevitable.

    V
     
  3. Principled

    Principled Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2003
    Messages:
    3,659
    Likes Received:
    229
    RE: The Old Testament Vs The New Testament

    Aha Oblivionlord – you are getting there!

    A literal interpretation of parts of the sacred texts of probably all religions has led to heinous crimes being committed and justified in that religion’s name, while the spiritual interpretation would lead to just the opposite. It is so important that we search for the truth that is behind the words. All through the Bible runs the golden thread of the superiority of spiritual power over material. The OT prophets, especially Elijah and Elisha caught awesome glimpses of the Christ – the power of the presence of God and the presence of the power of God - and were able to perform what people call miracles (although I don’t call them that!)

    The Bible is the story of the search for God. It is a journey of discovery. It reaches its fulfilment in the life and works of Jesus Christ who came to give men the message that the Kingdom of God was not a physical place, but a state of consciousness within us all, that it is HERE and NOW. Further more, he gave us the understanding that “I and my Father are ONE.” Jesus didn’t come to establish a new religion, with more rituals and dogma, he came to show men the Way – the way of salvation from sin, from suffering, from limitation, from fear. He came to show a way of living and thinking that would give us our inheritance of dominion and authority over all material limitation.

    Now, substitute the word ‘God’ for ‘Bible’ in my analogy of the tree and that is what I was getting at:

    To our ancient forefathers, the earth was flat and they wrote about it being flat and were limited by their subsequent fears. But what they believed and how they described it, didn’t change the actual fact that the world was round.

    This is why I say, look for the inspired Word of the Bible – the Word of God. It’s right there, alongside the words of men. That Word uplifts, comforts, heals. That’s how I judge what is true and what isn’t – by healing.

    Even someone like St Paul had what we call his occasional “bad hair day” when he felt separated from God, from Love itself. He wrote:

    ..five times received I forty stripes save one. Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep; In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness. Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches. (II Cor 99)

    Now, that is a historical perspective in the Bible. I very much doubt you could ever be healed reading such depressing words! But look at this, from the very same author, on fire with inspiration and spiritual revelation:

    Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

    Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8)


    Now, the truth behind that passage has wonderful power to uplift, comfort, protect and heal!

    Mary Baker Eddy wrote:

    The Scriptures are very sacred. Our aim must be to have them understood spiritually, for only by this understanding can truth be gaine
     
  4. Principled

    Principled Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2003
    Messages:
    3,659
    Likes Received:
    229
    RE: The Old Testament Vs The New Testament


    'Cor Oblivionlord, here I am for the second time in one morning!

    I’ve just popped back here to share some words about the Bible that sum up exactly what I’m trying to get across. They are by Elaine Follis, a Bible scholar and professor. She talks about scepticism towards the Bible, especially from academics:


    Then, after describing how a young man was about to use a gun to kill himself, but had picked up a Bible before he did so, she writes:



    I really hope you’ll read the whole article Oblivionlord:

    The heart of the Bible
    from the November 2005 issue of The Christian Science Journal.

    [link=http://tinyurl.com/kw34z]http://tinyurl.com/kw34z[/link]

    Love and peace,
    Judy
     
  5. oblivionlord

    oblivionlord New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2006
    Messages:
    40
    Likes Received:
    0
    RE: The Old Testament Vs The New Testament

    To only see the Bible as a story "The Search For God" is ignoring the fact of all the crimes, killings, murders, rapes, deaths etc etc of all that actually happened in the past. The Bible does hold some historic grounds and to only see the statements of God within the OT as it was interpreted by man to be just part of a story and not to see these words as what was actually said but, written by man is not Christian like. How exactly can you consider yourself to be a Christian if you do not believe that God did infact say and perform harsh things to man and forsaken them at the same time? Do you have conclusive evidence that God did not speak directly to the ones who worded him in they way it was said to them or performed the actions as was said in the OT?

    Sounds like you are only looking at the Bible in the way that You want to see it for your own salvation.
     
  6. Principled

    Principled Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2003
    Messages:
    3,659
    Likes Received:
    229
    RE: The Old Testament Vs The New Testament

    No Oblivionlord,

    Not for my own salvation, but for all mankind's.

    Love and peace,

    Judy
     
  7. oblivionlord

    oblivionlord New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2006
    Messages:
    40
    Likes Received:
    0
    RE: The Old Testament Vs The New Testament

    You unknowingly are agreeing with what I've said, but not wishing to repeat it; however are you looking at the big picture for all mankind? If you simply take a look at one of the Christian doctrines "Thou shall not Kill" and apply it to our own history, what would happen to mankind if we removed intentional killings from our own background? We would be left with an excessive overpopulation of the Earth leading mankind into a downward spiral from lack of resources to which there is no control.

    If we play God for a moment and put primitive humans onto a lush and bountiful planet with no predators, no natural enemies then, those humans wouldn't fear anything because there would be nothing to fear. They would crave nothing more than food and shelter from the rains. These desires are presently easy to come by, and so they have no reason to war on each other. Paradise is it not? They've nothing to do but, laze and multiply. If no actions are taken to stop the consistancy then their population will rise to a level far greater than what the planet can support. Famine will set in followed by criminal warfare and cannibalism.

    It is within the nature of our being to do this so that we can continue to exist. These are not interpretations...these are part of the core. You may ask yourself, "Is this the search for God"? Then we must search for him through his own teachings, through our own analysis of the bible. We find that his teachings, which we live by, have fallacies if you bend the rules to take our own interpretations of his word. But which do we accept: his word or our own?

    Not everyone gets joy from looking at a flower.
     
  8. songstress

    songstress New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2003
    Messages:
    4,286
    Likes Received:
    0
    RE: The Old Testament Vs The New Testament

    oblivionlord,

    Please forgive me if I have interpreted your words wrongly, but you seem to be confused about the Old Testament and Christianity. The Old Testament was written by the ancient Hebrews, not by Christians. The Christians wrote the New Testament. The OT includes some books from the Torah, some from ancient Egyptian writings and hymns and from other sources. Some Judaic tenets have found their way into Christianity e.g. the Ten Commandments, worship of false idols, etc.

    To return to the original question: the difference between the OT and NT is that the OT is based on Judaic teachings, the NT is partly, but mostly talks about Jesus, the Apostles, the travelling and spreading of the Gospel and the Revelation at the end.

    We cannot put new thoughts into the heads of the ancients. It is how they viewed the world and set good social boundaries.

    Patsy.
    P.S. Mary Baker Eddy was perhaps the most enlightened woman of recent times. Christian Science is an illumined form of Christian teaching.
     
  9. oblivionlord

    oblivionlord New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2006
    Messages:
    40
    Likes Received:
    0
    RE: The Old Testament Vs The New Testament

    [align=left][font="arial, arial, helvetica"]First of all the Old Testament lays the foundation for the teachings and events found in the New Testament. The Bible is a progressive revelation. If you skip the first half of any good book and try to finish it; you will have a hard time understanding the characters, the plot, and the ending. Even so, the New Testament is only completely understood when it is seen as being built upon the foundation of the events, characters, laws, sacrificial system, covenants, and promises of the Old Testament.

    [font="arial, arial, helvetica"]If we only had the New Testament, we would come to the gospels and not know why the Jews were looking for a Messiah (a Savior King). Without the Old Testament, we would not understand why this Messiah was coming (see Isaiah 53); we would not have been able to identify Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah through the many detailed prophecies that were given concerning Him (e.g.., His birth place (Micah 5:2); His manner of death (Psalm 22, especially vv. 1,7-8, 14-18; Psalm 69:21, etc.), His resurrection (Psalm 16:10), and many more details of His ministry (Isaiah 52:19f.; 9:2, etc.)).

    [font="arial, arial, helvetica"]Without the Old Testament, we would not understand the Jewish customs that are mentioned in passing in the New Testament. We would not understand the perversions that the Pharisees had made to God's law as they added their tradition to it. We would not understand why He was so upset as He cleansed the temple courtyard. We would not understand that we can make use of the same wisdom that Christ used in His many replies to His adversaries (both human and demonic);(when I first read through the Old Testament, having already read the gospels a couple of times, I was repeatedly surprised that saying that I thought were new with Jesus, were actually Him quoting God's previous revelation in Old Testament verses).

    [font="arial, arial, helvetica"]In a similar fashion, the New Testament Gospels and Acts of the Apostles record many of the fulfillments of prophecies that were recorded hundreds of years earlier in the Old Testament. Many of these relate to first coming of the Messiah. In the circumstances of Jesus' birth, life, miracles, death, and resurrection as found in the Gospels we find the fulfillment of the Old Testament prophecies that relate to the Messiah's first coming. It is these details that validate Jesus' claim to be the promised Christ. And even the prophecies in the New Testament (many of which are in the Book of Revelation) are built upon earlier prophecies found in Old Testament books. These New Testament prophecies relate to events surrounding the second coming of Christ. Roughly two out of three verses in Revelation are based on Old Testament verses.

    If you try to interpret the Bible in your own image, then let me remind you of these 2 passages:

    Revelations
    22:18I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book, if anyone adds to them, may God add to him the plagues which are written in this book.

    22:19If anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, may God take away his part from the tree of life, and out of the holy city, which are written in this book.
    [/align]
     
  10. Venetian

    Venetian New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2003
    Messages:
    10,398
    Likes Received:
    10
    RE: The Old Testament Vs The New Testament

    [/align][align=left][/align][align=left]I really cannot say whether it's a valid concept or not, but whereas these words from Revelation on the face of it seem to be a holy writ saying "Don't change these truths", there's quite a large body of scholars who believe Revelation was tampered with early, or may not even have been through St. John, and that the "seven churches" of Revelation are literally seven of the Christian communities of the time. This view has it that the warning on not changing the words was itself humanly-written for political ends. I have no opinion either way.[/align][align=left][/align][align=left]What I certainly do have an opinion on is: [/align][align=left][/align][align=left]"If you try to interpret the Bible in your own image, then let me remind you of these 2 passages:"[/align][align=left][/align][align=left]... I can see that you don't understand the philosophy of hermaneutics? (The word is derived from Hermes, the messenger-god.) Philosophers point out that nobody ever receives a message or communication in the same way, or precisely as intended. Everyone, by human nature, interprets and colours any wording according to their own character. Thus hermanutics or hermes, the messenger, is the "thing" that comes between the original message and our understanding of it - such as our own personality, beliefs, and preconceptions.[/align][align=left][/align][align=left]For example, you may say, "Take this particular passage - it is obvious what it means." But it "obviously" means different things to different people. Not to understand that is to be egocentric, in the belief that one's own perception is 'correct', that of others incorrect.[/align][align=left][/align][align=left]Therefore you yourself do interpret the Bible in your own image, so do I, and so has any reader or commentator on it. Look up "hermaneutics" (not Biblical but philosophical) and follow the idea from there if you like.[/align][align=left][/align][align=left]V[/align]
     
  11. songstress

    songstress New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2003
    Messages:
    4,286
    Likes Received:
    0
    RE: The Old Testament Vs The New Testament

    oblivionlord,

    David is right - people interpret all writings and texts as they want to. The Bible is no exception, but to confuse the OT with the NT is not 'interpreting in one's own image.' The OT was mostlywritten by Hebrew scholars, who believed in a certain type of wrathful God, and it details wars and conflicts, which were taking place in that area at the time. Not only that, but much 'foreign' work has found its way into the OT, so that much of what comes down to us is a conglomerate of different treachings and passages. For example, Egyptian writings are included, so are those from ancient Sumer and all describe the attitude of the writers to God and the foretelling ofa Messiah. However, the OT is predominantly Jewish and not Christian.

    Patsy.
     
  12. Conspiritualist

    Conspiritualist New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2003
    Messages:
    2,548
    Likes Received:
    3
    RE: The Old Testament Vs The New Testament

    Quite right!
    The 1st Testament is the exclusive word of God and has not been tampered with or had other ideologies, characters or stories introduced to it by man…
    Because clearly, if it had, then you would certainly find it easy to spot, as it would share similarities to other prior beliefs and civilisations… Like Sumerian for example… which patently is not the case! ... No![&:]

    Now, I shouldget on, as I've got to organise a stoning for the young lad next door, because he was rude to his mum, and I must remember not to mix wool with cotton with whatI wear... or was it draylon andspandex should never be allowed to chaff on cheesecloth in the 1st week of August if you sport a beard and your !st born is a girl...?
    ... Oh dear,I just can't rememer[sm=scratchchin.gif][/align]
     
  13. sunanda

    sunanda New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2003
    Messages:
    7,630
    Likes Received:
    10
    RE: The Old Testament Vs The New Testament

    [sm=rollaugh.gif][sm=rollaugh.gif][sm=rollaugh.gif][sm=rollaugh.gif][sm=rollaugh.gif]
     
  14. Venetian

    Venetian New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2003
    Messages:
    10,398
    Likes Received:
    10
    RE: The Old Testament Vs The New Testament

    And as a self-employed guy, Conspiritualist, no matter the urgency you'd better not work on the Sabbath! Though actually Jesus kinda overturned that one himself.

    I was in a New Age community years ago, where I lived, and a guy refused to do some simple chores on the Sabbath. An enlightened guy pointed out to him that we are now in the Aquarian Age with many Teachings which might be seen as superceding or "upping by several notches" the Piscean Christianity ... and there was this guy still stuck in the Arian dispensation of the Jewish Law! He hadn't even reconciled hiself to Jesus' teachings on the Sabbath or to the Piscean Age. He was over 2,000 years behind the times!

    V
     
  15. oblivionlord

    oblivionlord New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2006
    Messages:
    40
    Likes Received:
    0
    RE: The Old Testament Vs The New Testament

    What you all fail to reconize is that I am not altering the Bible in anyway from which it was written. I am not thinking anything other than the sun being formed on the 3rd day. I am not thinking anything other than Abraham, sacrificing his child to God out of loyalty, fear even though God said to stop. I am not looking at Adam because of a misunderstanding of evil, but as an actual sin. You want to challenge the word of God by revealing evidence that Daniel was just telling a fascinating story to the world when God told him of Revelations? How Christian like would it be to do otherwise?

    Maybe you all would like to enlighten me with actual evidence that the events in the Bible did not take place as was told? Please reveal to me the truth as to the Sun not being created on the 3rd day or God himself not considering Adams action as a sin? I have asked many times on this forum and yet noone cares or is even capable of answering with actual evidence. Therefore what gives anyone the right to see the Bible other than how it was exactly written? If you want to just overlook the passage within Revelations about how you should not add or remove words from within the prophecy then how is that Christian like? What proof do you or anyone have to say that in 80-100 years from now the Bible won't be interpreted from how you see it today? Therefore it becomes nothing more than a fish story. Again are we reading it by Gods wording or our own?

    At least I am not looking at it in someone elses perspective in mordern society, but only by those who ACTUALLY wrote the wordings of God within the Book.
     
  16. Venetian

    Venetian New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2003
    Messages:
    10,398
    Likes Received:
    10
    RE: The Old Testament Vs The New Testament

    The Bible isn't a book. It's a collection of books, and what went into the collection was decided for political reasons by men circa 400 AD - and many great books were alsoleft out of the collection (for political reasons).

    oblivionlord, when it comes to proving anything, it's first up to the asserter to prove his belief. Only then could anyone engage in trying to "prove" any assertion is "wrong".

    So first you must prove that the sun was created on the "third day". -- and the fact that it is written in some old manuscript doesn't count as "proof" such as one would need, say, in a court of law, at all. It does count as belief. It's mere belief - and peoples the world around have many, many different beliefs, contradicting yours. IMHO they are just as entitled to have their beliefs.

    As for "how the sun was created", the nearest thing to proof we have is the scientific evidence - and there's certainly no room there of a six-day creation, or of God pulling out his sun-lounger on the seventh day. :DThis is myth and allegory.

    V
     
  17. songstress

    songstress New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2003
    Messages:
    4,286
    Likes Received:
    0
    RE: The Old Testament Vs The New Testament

    oblivionlord,

    I don't think anyone was getting into the nitty-gritty of thebooks of the Bible per se; only that we wished to make the distinction between the Old and New Testaments, which was the thread subject.

    Patsy.
     
  18. Conspiritualist

    Conspiritualist New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2003
    Messages:
    2,548
    Likes Received:
    3
    RE: The Old Testament Vs The New Testament

    Bravo
    But can you tell me ‘O' Boss of Nothingness’ why it is then that the Old Testament looks like it has ripped off big chunks of the Epic of Gilgamesh… or has that tiny little fact just slipped ya by?

    I also assumethat you’d organise to have your neighbour stoned to death would you?
    Did you or will you circumcise your son on the 8 day?

    Hey!...I suppose you stoically stand guard to stop people entering church if they are blind, lame, disfigured, deformed, has a crippled foot or hand, is hunchbacked or dwarfed, or those that have any eye defects, festering or running sores … and I assume you also check for damaged testicles too right?…;)
     
  19. Principled

    Principled Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2003
    Messages:
    3,659
    Likes Received:
    229
    RE: The Old Testament Vs The New Testament

    Dear Oblivionlord,

    I wasn't going to come back here as I don't respond to rudeness, but felt we needed a bit more clarification.

    1) The Revelation of St John was originally a manuscript that stood alone, so those words you have copied are simply referring to that one book.

    Edited to add:

    Revelation 22 (Young's Literal Translation)

    The Bible text designated YLT is from the 1898 Young's Literal Translation by Robert Young who also compiled Young's Analytical Concordance. This is an extremely literal translation that attempts to preserve the tense and word usage as found in the original Greek and Hebrew writings.

    18`For I testify to every one hearing the words of the prophecy of this scroll, if any one may add unto these, God shall add to him the plagues that have been written in this scroll,

    19and if any one may take away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the scroll of the life, and out of the holy city, and the things that have been written in this scroll;'


    2) The Christians during the first three centuries after Jesus' ascension had no Bible. Did that make them not real Christians as you seem to suggest? They included the 11 disciples and Paul as well as the Marys, the other close women followers and hundreds of others who had seen and heard Jesus and had perhaps been healed (or raised from the dead) by him. They did not have the Bible, but they had faith and love and they were healing and raising the dead. They were not all Jewish - many were Greek, some Roman, so they didn't have the OT. They were following Jesus' example - they were living in "The Way" as he had taught, they were living holy lives of love and forgiveness, of prayer and worship, or charity, equality, sharing and goodness. They were healing the sick and raising the dead. But according to Oblivionlord, they were not Christians.

    3) You talk of “The Bible”. What is “The Bible” though? The book is in different forms according to which branch of Christianity you belong to – Catholic, Protestant or Eastern and I’m sure there must be more!

    This is an interesting little history of how it all came together:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_canon

    Basically, these are the rough dates:

    500 BC: Completion of All Original Hebrew Manuscripts which make up The 39 Books of the Old Testament.

    200 BC: Completion of the Septuagint Greek Manuscripts which contain The 39 Old Testament Books AND 14 Apocrypha Books.

    1st Century AD: Completion of All Original Greek Manuscripts which make up The 27 Books of the New Testament.

    315 AD: Athenasius, the Bishop of Alexandria, identifies the 27 books of the New Testament which are today recognized as the canon of scripture.

    382 AD: Jerome's Latin Vulgate Manuscripts Produced which contain All 80 Books (39 Old Test. + 14 Apocrypha + 27 New Test).

    So what we know as the Bible wasn't actually put together until over 350 years after Jesus' time on earth. Much of the writing of the various manuscripts had been originally oral history and had been written decades after the actual events, often by scribes and second-hand or further away from the events.
     
  20. Venetian

    Venetian New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2003
    Messages:
    10,398
    Likes Received:
    10
    RE: The Old Testament Vs The New Testament

    Goodness, Judy,

    With all the threads there have been on the Bible and on 'real' Christianity [remember the hilarious one on REAL modern jive 'translations'? ;)] I didn't think there were many more points to make. But it's a very valid point that the earliest (closest in time to Jesus, and some even knew him, so one supposes the most 'clued in' Christians) didn't even have The Bible- and that of course an increasing percentage of them were not Jews.

    I also hadn't known that the Apocrapha were held in such high esteem until so recently.

    It's all very easy to think that "only I, here and now, know the truth" - but the Christians of, say, one century after Jesus, or those who knew him, probably knew the truth better than anyone today? - and is it not a loss (hardly a gain) that Christians in pretty recent times have been deprived of the Apocrapha?

    Ultimately everybody "interprets" the Bible in their own way. Personally I don't have as much respect for those who might say, "No I don't, for my whole church interprets scripture in exactly the same way and we all agree" as I do for those who read and understand in their own inner way.

    V
     

Share This Page

This site uses XenWord.