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Saint Germain - Proof of Immortality?

Discussion in 'Scientific Matters' started by Venetian, Jul 24, 2005.

  1. Venetian

    Venetian New Member

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    I could have put this in any of several HP forums, but since scientific minds tend to avoid the historical facts about Saint Germain, I thought I'd place it here.

    Here we have a man who was mature by the opening of the 1700s, yet never appeared to age over well over a century. He was known to the royal houses of Europe, and warned Marie Antoinette about the coming French Revolution. He could speak every single language, it seems, including Oriental ones. He was a superb musician. Masons with deep knowledge believe he was either the founder, or much behind the scenes, in Rosicrucianism and Freemasonry in the beginning. Manley Palmer Hall believes Saint Germain had more than anyone else to do with the American Revolution.

    He could write a poem with one hand while writing a letter with the other! He could turn flawed gems into perfect ones. He invented steam engines 20 years before Stevenson's Rocket...

    Saint Germain never appeared to eat, or very little oatmeal according to some. He was enormously wealthy but had no bank acount and usually no obvious income. He acted as a diplomat or even spy over many decades for many countries. Though well-known in Europe, he was also with Clive of India in the 1850s (1750s?). Voltaire knew him and called him, "The man who never dies, and who knows everything." The opera singer, Emma Calve, was visited by him in 1897 and signed a phtograph for him, saying he had dispensed wonderful wisdom. His musical compositions are in museums around the world, and sometimes are recorded. He wrote at least one book, "Most Holy Trinosophia".

    Since he was a grown man from around 1700, and still not aged by 1897 -- how? Many claim to have met him even up to the present day, and there are many such published accounts of meetings with him in the 20th century. People have known him throughout their lives, from their childhood to old age, but he does not age. He walked at will throughout the courts of Europe, in which everyone seems to have known him. When it was once attempted, he proved somehow impossible to arrest.

    If this man isn't a mystery, what is?

    The historical records are unquestionable, rom the letters and diaries of royalty and others of the day over centuries. He did exist. I've often noted how sceptics simply avoid looking at this subject, or throw out superficial answers without checking that well-known personages of the day attest to Saint Germain's longevity, during which his appearance didn't even alter. It's an interesting case given all the evidence.

    It's said, "To know him is to love him."

    One of hundreds of links is:

    [DLMURL]http://theosophy.org/tlodocs/teachers/SaintGermain.htm[/DLMURL]

    Venetian
     
  2. Itharial

    Itharial New Member

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    RE: Saint Germain - Proof of Immortality?

    Thanks very much for this, it is alwayse a good thing to read and understand more about St Germain. I admire him very much.

    Is he one of your guides?
    If so I would love to know more as Iknow St germain is my *Higher* guide one I feel very blessed in having around me.

    Love and Blessings
    Ithar:)
     
  3. Venetian

    Venetian New Member

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    RE: Saint Germain - Proof of Immortality?

    Hi Ithar,

    I wouldn't quite call Saint Germain a 'guide' of mine as that isn't my background (spiritualism). It's also the Science forum so I'm keeping that in mind! :D But many believe he's well-worth heeding if you get the chance. ;)

    There's an account by Leadbeater who met Saint Germain in Rome about a century ago "as if by chance". (Meaning Saint Germain made it happen.) Leadbeater comments something like, "We talked in some gardens for some time - or rather he talked, and I listened." ;)

    One point about that is that I tend to think of Saint Germain as a physical man, not a 'spirit', as such. Meetings such as that one in Rome were physical.

    Venetian
     
  4. Itharial

    Itharial New Member

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    RE: Saint Germain - Proof of Immortality?

    Thanks for that
    Well there are no records of him dying, So I very much believe he is out and about very strongly.

    It is either St Germain or Archangel Michael I see and meet up with a lot
    Though Ste Germain Archangel Michael, St Francis all the same line.

    I am very much my back ground,( Astral Magician) Crystals, and representative, from this realm and many others. So astral travel is somethign I do allot as well as developing in

    Love
    Ithar:)
     
  5. Venetian

    Venetian New Member

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    RE: Saint Germain - Proof of Immortality?

    That's another point of course. There was some story that he had died in the 1700s - but then he was present and in good health (he never was seen ill) at a Masonic gathering after that, and of course many more times. I have friends who say they have met him personally - and I mean physically - but that's another story.

    So no death recorded, no body, no funeral. I just wonder what down-the-line materialists make of all that? ;)

    Years ago a decent TV docu was made about Saint Germain in the "In Search of..." series related my Leonard Nimoy. This too concluded that he was a famous figure who never aged and is not known to have died.

    BTW there was a charlatan in Paris just a few years ago calling himself "Saint Germain" - no relation.

    V
     
  6. Mirrie

    Mirrie New Member

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    RE: Saint Germain - Proof of Immortality?

    Venetian,

    I read the information on the website you posted in your first message and cannot help wondering: what is the purpose of his manifestations? What do you think?

    Under what circumstances did St Germain manifested himself to your friends? What changed for them after his visit?

    I'm just curious...

    Mirrie
     
  7. Venetian

    Venetian New Member

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    RE: Saint Germain - Proof of Immortality?

    For the large picture you'd have to ask him! But there are one or two well-researched biographies of him, and just one thing emerging from them is that he repeatedly tried to guide the destiny of Europe by getting to know the royalty and offering his advice. In the long-run they appear to have very seldom heeded him - such as his warning of the coming of the French Revolution, and Marie Antoinette ignoring that.

    In a fascinating book by Manley P. Hall, "The Secret Destiny of America" it emerges that a mysterious figure, or figures, not really recorded in traditional history books, were the driving force behind the American Revolution. Such a mysterious figure even gave a resounding speech for liberty which impelled the signers of the Declaration of Independence to rush forward and sign after hours or days of delay and debate. Many who've looked into all this believe that one thing Saint Germain was attempting to do was inaugurate democracy in our world for the first time, and it did not work in Europe so he moved his efforts across the ocean.

    <<After a few hours I decided to edit my reply to this. What individuals have told me is 'anecdotal', and personal, and it feels better to keep to the historical and other kinds of facts 'out there' in the world. I prefer the angle that Saint Germain is as real and as historic a figure as anyone else in fairly recent history.>>

    V
     
  8. Venetian

    Venetian New Member

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    RE: Saint Germain - Proof of Immortality?

    Just to ask many days later...

    Nothing else anyone cares to add to this? I would have thought it an amazing challenge to science that a man is documented to have lived so long and was such a mystery - i.e. he knew how to do it and is not ever known to have yet passed on.

    Maybe it should have been under "psychic" or "spiritual", but I was interested in looking at the known historical record and hard facts more than readings etc :)

    Venetian
     
  9. songstress

    songstress New Member

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    RE: Saint Germain - Proof of Immortality?

    Hi David,

    Maybe the reason why nobody has responded is because very few have heard of St Germain. However, his life story correlates with Rasputin in many ways, and this personage too, is worthy of a great deal of research.

    Love,
    Patsy.
    [:-]
     
  10. Venetian

    Venetian New Member

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    RE: Saint Germain - Proof of Immortality?

    Hi Patsy,

    Er, I would not agree with the comparison TBH. "Saint Germain" means Holy Brother for this is how people found him to be, whereas for want of a better word, Rasputin was "evil". Hard to kill, granted, but in the end finished off OK. I do agree he is a mystery figure of course, but mortal.

    I am surprised if few know of Saint Germain - that's illuminating to me. He was one of the most influential people in all of Europe for at least 150 years! Almost every Rohal household knew him and used his services.

    I would guess, I think accurately, that historians do not know how to deal with a clearly paranormal figure. So he not so much spoken of.

    V xxx
     
  11. Nozza

    Nozza New Member

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    RE: Saint Germain - Proof of Immortality?

    "The historical records are unquestionable"

    I rather think they are, like most historical records. People only put down what they believe or what they want others to think. Rarely do they write the objective truth even if they are trying to do so. Many records of very well-known events differ hugely. The occultist Alliette stated at the time that there were two Counts. So people were not in agreement even at the time.

    It sounds like he certainly existed as an extraordinary character. But any indication of immortality is pure hearsay. No proof of birth date for starters.

    The Fortean Time says this: "Although we can’t conclusively determine St-Germain’s age and origin, we do have an answer from the Count himself. He told Prince Karl he was the son of Francis Rakoczy II, Prince of Transylvania, and gave his age as 88. If this were true, he would have been 67 at Versailles, when he was said to look 45, and Francis would have sired him at the tender age of 15. Neither is impossible. However, it’s also possible the Count was deluded – like all those Anastasia candidates – or that Karl jumbled his facts. We just don’t know but it’s the closest we have to an answer."

    If he looked 45 then he obviously did age. Some people today who are 60 odd look 40 odd. It's not that amazing.

    Your initial question was "proof of immortality?" so in any sense of the word "proof", he answer has to be no.
     
  12. songstress

    songstress New Member

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    RE: Saint Germain - Proof of Immortality?

    Thanks, David. I hope that you feel better soon!

    Love,
    Patsy.
    xxxxxx
     
  13. Soapy Sam

    Soapy Sam New Member

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    RE: Saint Germain - Proof of Immortality?

    Perhaps he was Enoch Root in disguise?

    I think I first came across Le Comte in Umberto Eco's "Foucault's Pendulum".

    I understood the real chap was thought to have died in the mid 1780s in Schleswig Holstein.

    I agree with Nozza that what we have here is just incomplete records. It never occurred to me anyone would take the claim of immortality seriously.
     
  14. Venetian

    Venetian New Member

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    RE: Saint Germain - Proof of Immortality?

    Hi Nozzy, Sam,


    The records of his life are more complete than for most famous personages of history. While there may be tiny errors in the biographies of, say, Napoleon or Louis XV, etc., Saint Germain is just as equally recorded. There are a couple of thick, extremely detailed biographies of him from painstaking research.

    So "incomplete records" sounds like something of a cop-out. It's as if I decided not to believe that Napoleon was involved at Waterloo and put that down to "incomplete records". Not a rational approach, is it. I'd be judged irrational. Scores of people left details accounts of knowing le Comte, and he was an advisor to and a messenger of many royal families, who honoured him.

    Here's one decent site, which of course any individual may read or filter from awareness. It's a short, balanced summary (only) of all the known information.
    http://www.alchemylab.com/count_saint_germain.htm

    What the site doesn't go into are the later meetings such as in the late 1800s.

    IMHO since this is history detailed enough to fill a thick biographical book, which it has, and once more because it doesn't fit reductionist materialism it is "filtered out" by intellectual spinning. Comments suddenly become cruder and explanations a bit sparse.

    One thing is, it's not intellectually honest IMHO to agree that 20 datums about dozens of other historical figures are almost all accurate, but then to turn around with a more astonishing character and refuse to look at the datums with equal seriousness. It's pcking and choosing among equally-well historically-recorded facts in order to construct one's own preferred history. ;)

    A quote from the link. (The link is only recounting all historical records generally agreed upon.) -


    -------------------------------------


    Although, on the evidence of reliable witnesses, he must have been at least a hundred years old in 1784, his death in that year cannot have been genuine. The official documents of Freemasonry say that in 1785 the French masons chose him as their representative at the great convention that took place in that year, with Mesmer, Saint-Martin, and Cagliostro present. In the following year Saint-Germain was received by the Empress of Russia. Finally, the Comtesse d'Adhemar reports at great length a conversation she had with him in 1789 in the Church of the Recollets, after the taking of the Bastille.

    His face looked no older than it had looked thirty years earlier. He said he had come from China and Japan. "There is nothing so strange out there," he said, "as that which is happening here. But I can do nothing. My hands are tied by someone who is stronger than I. There are times when it is possible to draw back; others at which the decree must be carried out as soon as he has pronounced it."

    And he told her in broad outlines all the events, not excepting the death of the queen, that were to take place in the years that followed. "The French will play with titles and honors and ribbons like children. They will regard everything as a plaything, even the equipment of the Garde Nationale. There is today a deficit of some forty millions, which is the nominal cause of the Revolution. Well, under the dictatorship of philanthropists and orators the national debt will reach thousands of millions."

    "I have seen Saint-Germain again," wrote Comtesse d'Adhemar in 1821, "each time to my amazement. I saw him when the queen was murdered, on the 18th of Brumaire, on the day following the death of the Duke d'Enghien, in January, 1815, and on the eve of the murder of the Duke de Berry."

    Mademoiselle de Genlis asserts that she met the Comte de Saint-Germain in 1821 during the negotiations for the Treaty of Vienna; and the Comte de Chalons, who was ambassador in Venice, said he spoke to him there soon afterwards in the Piazza di San Marco.



    ---------------------------------

    and on.... :D

    Venetian
     
  15. Soapy Sam

    Soapy Sam New Member

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    RE: Saint Germain - Proof of Immortality?

    Definitely Enoch Root then, or perhaps Stephenson's inspiration for the Root character.
    Odd that while the link you gave says he always wore jewels and the pictures painted of him were full of jewels, the one illustration given shows a plainly dressed, unornamented man in a short wig.
    Do we have records of the "many pictures"? Their whereabouts now? There are many known paintings of his contemporaries. Slapping a decent likeness on theinternet might turn him up in a day or so , if he still hasn't changed.

    A quick google of the words Napoleon Biography gets 563,000 hits
    Saint Germain Biography gets 159,000, but it's evident that Saint Germain refers to several places as well as our man.
    Count saint Germain biography gets 21,900 hits. Hardly commensurate with Napoleon, but certainly significant.

    The difference lies in corroborative detail. We have birth and death dates and places for Napoleon and neither for SG. You could respond that of course there is no death date, since he is not dead. By the same logic, since we have no birth date, he cannot have been born. Which merely shows how empty that assumption is.

    Extraordinary claims do require extraordinary proof. Napoleon was extraordinary, but nowhere near so odd as the claims for SG.
    A truly immortal person would be permanently in danger. He would be forced to move frequently, before the peasants showed up with the torches and pitchforks. He would be ever at risk of an accident. Would he dare to travel by aircraft?
    Where did he go after 1800? Where is he now? How many living descendants does he have by this time? Do they share his longevity? Given that he moved in high social circles, how many crowned heads carry his genes? Is he sitting in some Bavarian Schloss, the fat spider in a web of blood relations, running a mysterious financial cartel?

    Or did he perhaps meet his end through some stray bomb or bullet in any of the many wars since?

    Or did he quietly snuff it like everybody else?

    Actually it ought to be possible to find such a person. Investment records would be useful. In the future, when we are all issued with genetically coded ID chips before birth, the loopholes will close. Which would be a pity, I feel. I like stories like this. I just don't feel any need to believe them.


    By the way- you are right about picking and choosing historical data, but historians do it all the time, because they consider one source more reliable than another. (I'm no historian). What does seem odd to me about the records of SG is that contemporaries who claimed to know of his extraordinary longevity nonetheless appear to have engaged him in polite conversation about affairs of the day instead of asking him how he did it.

    I mean if you met someone you thought might be immortal , would you be interested in his politics?
     
  16. Venetian

    Venetian New Member

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    RE: Saint Germain - Proof of Immortality?

    He had stable homes for a couple of years at a time and there were no pichforks. This is sarcasm IMO, Sam. On the other hand he did travel enormously - every state of Europe I can think of, over and over, and was with Clive in India apparently.

    You have a few nice 'scientific' ideas here such as stats on Napoleon but I only pulled his name out of my head. Of course he is more famous. We could rather look up records on someone equally famous to SG. The Count didn't really hang around enough or rather seem to aspire to power. He was rather the advisor behind the throne, it seems. So not as well known as heads of state, though he bowed to none it seems.

    Frankly you miss the implication. I will be frank, and atheists may laugh as they will. It gets into regious or spiritual belief. If he was seen in 1897 and even later, for which there are records, he's not just a chap who managed to slow down aging. If angels exist, or if Jesus Ascended, do they then age and die? The religious would say not. That's why, in the opinion of many, the Count did not hang around and live a material life such as we do, and it may be why there is no record of his death.

    Didn't you notice the bit in the quote where he uttered a great statement, walked out the door, and could not be seen or found right afterwards? I'm not sure if the exercise has been done, but it may be if you put all the dates together of when people met and talked to him, there may be curiosities such as his having been in distant locations just a day later.

    I headed the thread, "Proof of Immortality?" That's because clearly a normal, mortal man such as you write about would not be immortal..... But an immortal would have become something else, if not mortal.

    BTW on paintings I haven't time but one of the great painters of the day - who was of the day as I'm not up on art? Raphael? - did something most unusual for him. I could look it up later. It's called "The Polish Rider" I think and is a mysterious subject for the artist. It's reputed to be Saint Germain. You won't be interested but there's also a kind of photo of him by the side of HP Blavatsky which again I could get a link for later. That would be maybe 1880. Clearly shows him though you'd say it's a guy dressed up.

    Venetian
     
  17. songstress

    songstress New Member

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    RE: Saint Germain - Proof of Immortality?

    Yes, smashing story! Very compelling.

    Love,
    Patsy.
    :D
     
  18. Soapy Sam

    Soapy Sam New Member

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    RE: Saint Germain - Proof of Immortality?

    Nah. Too much Terry Pratchett maybe.

    The problem with the whole thing is identification. I'd be fascinated by a photograph of him, or any good portrait you could turn up.

    If you met someone who claimed to be SG, you only have two ways to confirm his ID- one is by talking to others who had met him a significant time earlier and asking if they believed him to be the same man. The other is by comparison with an accurate image. (You could question him, but you could never be sure he was not a history student with access to the same data you would need to test him.)

    This remains true whether he is human , angel or ET.
    Now if Blavatsky met him- and let's face it, she seems to have met everyone else- how did SHE identify him? This is all I would like to establish- either an objective ID by an accurate portrait , or a chain of reliable sightings, ten or twenty years apart , by reliable witnesses. (I would doubt witness testimony after more than 20 years).

    I was studiously ignoring the implication you mention, out of politeness. You'll appreciate that in my view, the most likely explanation of the same man being seen at widely separated locations at nearly the same time would be that they were simply not the same man.

    Of course, if you are going to imply he was not a man at all, all deductive argument is off, until we can establish what he was and what powers he had;- but then the documentation you hold to be significant becomes rather worthless too, since it is written on the assumption that he is essentially a long-lived human.
    If he was an angel,for instance, how do we know there are not several hundred identical versions in existence at any time and that new ones are not manufactured every century or so? What do we know about angels, after all? Do they like jewellery? Are they given to political discussion?

    Let's take one level of improbability at a time.
    First, establish that there was such a person.(As opposed to several persons claiming to be the same person, at different times.) The ID problem.
    Then establish how long he definitely lived. (A minimum figure will do).
    Then establish what evidence there is for his immortality.
    That would be interesting enough. Proving that he could violate the laws of physics and may have been semi divine seems like a task for a lifetime's work, not for a chat on the internet.

    The more dramatic the claims, the harder we must work to prove them.

    ETA- I just looked up Rafael- like you I'm no art historian, but I had him pegged for renaissance, which seems about right. He died in 1520, well before the period SG seems to have been prominent- but again we are back to the identification problem- would we recognise him if he did appear in a Rafael work?
    As always- somebody got there ahead of me. Several somebodies, in fact.
    [link=http://www.metaweb.com/wiki/wiki.phtml?title=Stephenson:Neal:Quicksilver:Enoch_Root]Neal Stephenson[/link]
     
  19. Venetian

    Venetian New Member

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    RE: Saint Germain - Proof of Immortality?

    Hi, Sam :D -

    I wish I had my old biographies with me, but then it would take time and I can't cut and paste them. However there was a lineage of people who knew each other and knew Saint Germain together which knew him as looking middle-aged by the opening of the 1700s. As the site I quoted says, therefore,

    From the biographies this lineage or whatever one would call it - co-friends - of Saint Germain then continued at least until 1821.

    BTW I wasn't implying that he was an angel. Rather that he was a man who discovered how to transcend the state or mortality. The mortal laws no longer applied. You will have noted (?) that he produced prodigeous gemstones at will, and could perform a combination of feats quite peculiar, when combined. He didn't only know everything to quote Voltaire but seemed able to do almost anything.

    BTW Manley P Hall and other deeply knowledgeable Masons credited him with the founding of Masonry - in the days when it was a power for good and for enlightenment. Makes you wonder what he did not do.

    V
     
  20. Soapy Sam

    Soapy Sam New Member

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    RE: Saint Germain - Proof of Immortality?

    What would be intriguing in a case like this is evidence of knowledge that was not obtainable at the time in Europe, but which might be known to someone who had been around long enough to have travelled widely.

    If St.Germain had revealed (say) details of the geography of Australia or Antarctica to an audience in 1700, there would be a case to answer. In my (admittedly cursory) reading of various web links, I see nothing like this- much Hermetic mumbling about ancient wisdom, repeated mention of Masonic ritual and other secret arcana, but no actual hard data, no evidence of actual original thinking or genius;- this at a time when really important minds were pushing forward human knowledge faster than at any previous time. Hooke, Newton,Wren, Leibnitz- I find any of these of rather more interest than a probable con man who , for all the claims, appears to have contributed nothing more than any civil servant to human progress.

    If he actually had a fortuitous genetic inheritance that gave him superior healing or long life, we would expect to see the genes , by now, relatively common in parts of Europe. If he held some unlikely chemical secret, he seems rather reluctant to share it's benefits with anyone else. (Not that I consider that a bad decision).

    But at the end of the day, if someone like this truly existed, I would expect him to leave a more positive and unarguable legacy.

    I do rather wonder if what we might have here is simply a father and son- perhaps with twenty years between them- of distinctive and similar aspect, who used their family resemblance to con themselves a position in society.
    -A hypothesis plucked from the air, but one which explains much without any need for supernatural / para normal / whatever explanation at all.
     

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