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My findings on meditation

Discussion in 'Meditation' started by DanielKotzer, Dec 15, 2015.

  1. DanielKotzer

    DanielKotzer Member

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    So meditation only gives you eyes to see the conflict. Before you were in the situation of conflict, now that you are out of the situation, you can see it more clearly for what it is. So your healing technique has nothing to do with meditation, meditation makes it easier to see the problem but it is not what is solving it. To solve it you need to do something actively - in your words: you "assert a new intentional directive to replace it". What would that be in practical terms?

    Let us say I see a conflict - I remember some event that happened in the past, and left a bad taste in my mouth, now that it re-emerges I'm bothered by it again, it is something I would prefer not to remember, it gives me a bad feeling. You say I have to do something about it, what would that be? would it be saying something to myself? would it be remembering something? Would it be simply to observe the memory in a non-judgmental way, I mean, how do I translate what you suggest into a particular action? Is it something I should do? or a particular thought I should think. You say I have to actively do something, the awareness itself is not enough, but action is something very concrete, so what would this action be?
     
  2. Paul Crick

    Paul Crick Healthypages Moderator
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    Your meditation technique is opening the door for you to get a glimpse of what is happening within your aspects of consciousness, so you are half way there, consciousness is creative in nature, we think something and that is acted upon to create an experience, with meditation you do it to become more aware and that is the experience you create with your thoughts.

    An inner divisional conflict is set up by self usually following an experience, we decide how we wish to remember the experience and we tell self in no uncertain terms that from this moment forward I will always or I will never (whatever the conflict surrounds) and that sets up a directive. Consciousness is creative in nature, once a directive is set, our consciousness will set about creating experience after experience surrounding that directive, for we have declared to self that this is what I actually want to experience.

    This is the beginning thought, it will continue to be acted upon until it is changed with an ending thought (everything begins and ends with a thought), so when you become aware of something that is in conflict within self, then give yourself permission to see the beginning thought in an open and non-judgmental way, that switches you into neutral so that you can assess what you want to do, if you no longer choose to agree with the beginning thought that set up the directive, then once more you need to tell self in no uncertain terms that you are now happy to end that thought and replace it with.........

    Acceptance is the key, if whatever you replaced the beginning thought with allows you to accept the original experience in an open and non-judgmental way, then once you have come out of your meditation you can now think of that experience without any response like you would have normally done, then you have resolved that inner divisional conflict and are free to choose how you want to be as and when a similar experience unfolds.
     
  3. DanielKotzer

    DanielKotzer Member

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    This definitely sounds like a suggestion. Anyway, call it what you want, you are definitely programming your perception/belief/understanding.

    The other option is, as you say: to stay in a meditative state all day. But now that I think of it, that is exactly what Osho is suggesting. He's not saying you should meditate all day, but the "flow mode" you acquired during meditation where thought and action are flowing as one, this type of action -- which now I know is a state where your action is guided by intuition (autopilot) -- is not distracting you from being the observer, and should be the type of action you should keep going all the time - the intuitive action. What do think about this solution?
     
  4. Paul Crick

    Paul Crick Healthypages Moderator
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    That is what I have been trying to assist you to achieve, though as something which is normal outside of meditation. :)
     
  5. DanielKotzer

    DanielKotzer Member

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    So we have finally got it right.:) I really appreciate your help. The progress I made here would have taken me ages without your assistance. Now I really feel I know what I'm doing. I guess this post might be of help to others.

    One thing I would like to clear. I said that watchfulness and awareness are not the same thing, observing is an action. I want to clarify myself on that. To observe something specific, follow it with your gaze, is an action, but to be observant, is a state of awareness. So in that sense mindfulness and watchfulness are the same.
     
    #125 DanielKotzer, Feb 22, 2017
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  6. DanielKotzer

    DanielKotzer Member

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    One more thing, I don't think understanding by itself is blinding us from seeing the truth, like what seems to be the message in the Zen book I'm reading. I don't know if it's the notion of the commentator or really what the monks are saying, it's hard to tell because the monks speak in riddles, but even if it is, I don't buy that.

    Understanding the knowledge you gather through experience is important. If you don't understand what you know, you can't use it to predict how reality will behave, and therefore your reactions are no better then those of the ignorant.

    Having an ideology is the problem. Ideology seeks to change reality from what it is into something it should be, and therefore is a rejection of reality as it is by nature, but understanding what makes reality tick - what are the hidden reasons behind the way it behaves, is just a deeper knowing of reality.

    God created reality as it is, it is your dissatisfaction with it, which creates an issue in your mind.
     
    #126 DanielKotzer, Feb 24, 2017
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  7. Paul Crick

    Paul Crick Healthypages Moderator
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    Our life experience is a singular experience, one life = one experience, it is only when we start to create judgmental perceptions of separateness that divides it up and compartmentalises each thing we experience as being separate from the next thing, we orchestrate our own life experience (reality) based upon the way we choose to judge, perceive and understand our life experience, so if it we are not happy within our own chosen life experience, then we need to change self so that a different perception and reality can be created to reflect the changes we have created within.

    Everything begins and ends with a thought, what are your underlying thought patterns and beliefs surrounding your current understanding of your life experience creating for you right now????
     
  8. DanielKotzer

    DanielKotzer Member

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    So far we followed the idea that one should let his understanding reflect his experience as it is, now you say your understanding has an actual effect on your experience. aren't these 2 notions contradicting one another? Self is not your perception, self is your inner reality, it is what you really are, you can't change it just because you don't like it. and it is good at its core, trying to change it is creates distortion and corruption. Evil things people do because of fear of pain, or lust for pleasure, I don't see them as an expression of their true self, I see them as a distortion of the true self, not as a choice to experience something. We can project ourselves on the outer reality, but it can only reflect our self not our perception. Perception can sometimes hide the truth, but it can't change it.
     
  9. DanielKotzer

    DanielKotzer Member

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    Unless we say that just as our perception can hide reality from projecting its true nature on 'self', so can perception hide 'self' from projecting its true nature on reality. The disguise goes both ways.
     
    #129 DanielKotzer, Feb 26, 2017
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  10. Paul Crick

    Paul Crick Healthypages Moderator
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    It is the way we choose to judgmentally perceive things including self that sets up the way our life experience unfolds, our life experience is simply a reflection of that which we perceive to be self.

    We cannot change what we actually are outside of our judgmental perceptions and beliefs surrounding self and reality, nothing we do, say or experience here will have any bearing upon what we actually are.

    A self perception is whatever we judge self to be in relation to our own personal life experience, what we are outside of our judgments and what we perceive self to be is seldom the same thing, hence the inner divisional conflicts, by letting go of our judgmental perceptions we stop trying to be this or that and can just simply be. ;)

    A nice idea, but the reality is that people are living their judgmental perceptions and beliefs, everything they think and do is a direct reflection of their underlying thought patterns and beliefs, in this reality truth is simply what we choose to make it, one person's judgmental beliefs empowers them do something which another person's judgmental beliefs disempowers them from doing, they both judge each other to be wrong, but our true nature is not judgmental.

    There is what we perceive to be reality and there is 'what is', they are two completely different things, a judgmental perception of reality can always change, but 'what is' remains the same irrespective of our beliefs of reality. ;)

    Whilst you are trying to be something, you cannot know your true nature, whilst you are trying to judge yourself and your life experience, you cannot know your true self, whilst you are trying to compartmentalise and understand self, you cannot know your true self, if you want to know your true self, stop trying and start being. ;)
     
  11. DanielKotzer

    DanielKotzer Member

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    There are facts and there are actions, your actions reflect your perception, but the facts are not influenced by it, even if they are sometimes hidden by it, and I think you can get the perception out of the way, and experience reality directly, to synchronize yourself again with reality - take the red pill, so to speak - and that is meditation.
     
    #131 DanielKotzer, Feb 26, 2017
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  12. DanielKotzer

    DanielKotzer Member

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    It is true that our future experiences depend on the actions we send out - reality is responding to our actions - but it's not like each and every one of us is experiencing a different reality, we all influence the same reality, and we are effected by the choices of others as well. The nature of reality is such, that it is sending you back everything you send out, it is the way reality behaves, but if something came into existence, and has materialized in some form, it is an objective truth for everyone.
     
  13. Paul Crick

    Paul Crick Healthypages Moderator
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    You seem to be confusing thought and action, it is thought that is directing our life experience right now, our actions are the things we do within our chosen life experience, but before we can choose to do something we need to think. :)
     
  14. DanielKotzer

    DanielKotzer Member

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    Are you saying that we are totally responsible for our life experience? OK, you can say anything you want, you can even say we live in parallel universes, but the burden of explaining, such a far fetched claim, is on you - so explain how? If, for example, I go down the street and suddenly there is a dead end, I can't go any further, there is a high wall in front of me, did I choose this experience? Is it all in my head? it is when you go down to the details that the truth is revealed - but I'm listening... :rolleyes: I always listen, if you have something good to sell, I'll buy... :)
     
    #134 DanielKotzer, Feb 27, 2017
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  15. Paul Crick

    Paul Crick Healthypages Moderator
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    LOL, I certainly did not tell you to go down a dead end road, it was entirely your own choice to go that way, so you need to own and take personal responsibility for that choice. ;)
     
  16. DanielKotzer

    DanielKotzer Member

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    Yes, but our choices are limited by something we call reality, something we need to realize, in order to know what the scope of our choice is... our range of choice is not infinite, you know...

    We don't have to experience everything that exists. We can choose what to experience, from a list of things that actually exist on the menu - the menu that reality is putting on the table, but we can't pick something that's not on the list. ;)

    Sometimes we think we have no choice, because we were conditioned to think we have no choice, even though we have a choice, but not every limitation is imaginary - not every limitation is imposed by our perception - some limitations are real. We can choose, but only within the framework of what is possible, and not everything is possible.
     
    #136 DanielKotzer, Feb 27, 2017
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  17. Paul Crick

    Paul Crick Healthypages Moderator
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    We are obviously not designed to fly, but someone wanted to overcome that natural limitation so created a means to do it, people are not designed to breath underwater but people have designed things to allow them to move beyond that limitation and make it possible, so although we do have things that appear to limit our choices, our biggest limitation is always our underlying thought patterns and beliefs, the only thing that allows one person to tight walk across the grand canyon and another not to, is down to if they believe they can do it or not.

    Rather than using the word reality which brings up different perceptions in each individual, I usually use the words 'what is' because irrespective of what we believe things to be, there is always what is underpinning it. :)
     
  18. DanielKotzer

    DanielKotzer Member

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    Fine, so we are more or less on the same page on this one. I thought you are going to come up with some interesting explanation, on how thoughts can manifest themselves into existence, bypassing the need for action...:rolleyes:
     
  19. Paul Crick

    Paul Crick Healthypages Moderator
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    Our thoughts are something which are little understood, the mindless chatter which is our underlying thought patterns and beliefs shape our life experience as well as our general state of health and wellbeing, they create and manifest experience, not everything that we experience requires a direct conscious action on our part, how many times have you experienced something and thought 'that's strange, I was only thinking about that' or 'what is the chances of that happening', or you think of someone and the phone rings and it is them, or you receive a letter or text from them or bump into them on the street etc, this is what people call coincidence, luck, chance, karma, synchronicity etc, but this is how we actually function within consciousness for self and others. :)
     
  20. DanielKotzer

    DanielKotzer Member

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    Hi Paul,

    You say that the inner chattering, and the noisy mind, is the result of conflicts between our perception, and our actual experience, and I agree with that, if there is a conflict, and our perception rejects an experience, by criticizing it, or even repressing it, the inner chattering is very loud, but don't you agree that even if there is no current conflict between your perception and your experience, and you are at peace with reality, still, as long as your perception is active, there will always be inner chattering, because having a perception, means, you are constantly defining and explaining your experiences - you are analyzing them to fit them into your perception, and that inevitably creates some chattering, even if there is no conflict, don't yo agree?
     

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