My findings on meditation

Discussion in 'Meditation' started by DanielKotzer, Dec 15, 2015.

  1. DanielKotzer

    DanielKotzer
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    If keeping a group of skeletons we want to forget, in the closet of the subconscious takes a lot of effort and energy (Osho also said that much energy is released when we stop repressing) then you don't have to do anything in order for the repress knowledge to bubble out of your subconscious. You don't need to do anything in order to end the conflict and remove the border between the conscious and the subconscious. You are the one how is keeping it in place, by putting effort in keeping it there each and every moment.

    Why do you put so much effort in keeping it there?

    the suppression mechanism is driven by our need for understanding. Knowledge is just bits and pieces of information without context. It's the understanding of that knowledge which is connecting the dots. Without understanding we don't know what to expect from reality. That's why we hang on to it, it gives us a sense of stability and meaning to life. (it's not a bad thing to have an understanding, but if new information comes along, which demands a change of understanding - refining it or replacing it - then one should know how to let go).

    If we can find a way to stop understanding for a while, not stopping to form new understandings, but stop caring for any understanding all together for a while, the force that pushes the repression will stop pushing, and the locked up information will be released.

    In my experience, meditation is taking you to a place of direct experience, pure experience with no concepts to filter it.
     
    #101 DanielKotzer, Feb 15, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2017
  2. Paul Crick

    Paul Crick
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    We do not put any effort whatsoever in keeping our inner divisional conflicts in place, we spend energy attempting to keep them out of mind, the conflicts are stored permanently as a core way of being until we choose to change self. ;)

    yes but that requires change and change is often frightening and alien to a being that has spent a lifetime defining self rather than being self. :)

    No what you are advocating would require us to stay in a meditative state all of the time, that is not reality, is a diversion or escape mechanism to give us some respite, on its own done in a passive form it cannot resolve anything, all that has happened is you have gone into a more receptive state by diverting the mind for a time, do you not think it would be a lot beter to set about creating a permanent lasting change?
     
  3. DanielKotzer

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    Your way is more intentional, and the effect might be lasting longer. Maybe yours is more of a way-of-life, then a practice you do twice a day. It might be better, but I don't have enough experience with it yet, to have an informative opinion. I wasn't comparing the 2 ways, just wondering how even a simple meditation, like I did, had a long lasting effect on me, and it had. So my explanation was that as you meditate, the information you have repressed is bubbling to the surface, and now you can process it. After you have processed it, then everything is fine. The meditation just gave the conflict a chance to resurface, which gave you a chance to accept it and process it, which is what happened to me in meditation. After the practice, it's not going back to repression again; once it was processed it's not repressed again. You became aware of it, and by that you healed the wound. It's not a short break in the conflict.
     
  4. DanielKotzer

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    It seems as if you think the meditation object is there only so we can distract ourselves from thoughts, when ever a thought comes along, I simply distract myself from it, so I need something to distract my attention to, and that would be... the meditation object. If that was true then meditation would be like going to the movies - you forget your troubles and worries for a while.

    I suggested in a previous post, and you agreed, that this is not what the meditation object is for. You don't concentrate on it forcibly. It keeps your mind busy with something simple that involves no conflict; something repetitive and boring that needs no decision making; something that can be done on autopilot, and there for it doesn't need your attention to be focused on it.

    If you go to a movie to entertain yourself for a while, you engage in something which is more noisy than your thoughts, so the noise of your worries is lost in the noise of the distraction - your attention is distracted to the noise of the movie which is stronger then the noise of your thoughts. So in a movie your attention is captured even more. The distraction is now even stronger then before. But when you are engaged in something simple and repetitive, that needs no decision making, your attention is now free from having to be focused on anything, so you can sink into a state of pure awareness with no focus.

    Once focus is out of the way, understanding is out of the way (so I think) and many good things start happening. You become aware of knowledge you have repressed and you can now process it; you start hearing the voice of your intuition, which was not repressed but was so soft it couldn't be heard while the mind was noisy and stealing all the attention.

    After a while you go back to the everyday state, your understanding aspect is back - up and running, but you are not the same. The conflicts have been surfaced and have to be dealt with, and the insights you got from your intuition are now part of your pool of knowledge for good.
     
    #104 DanielKotzer, Feb 16, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2017
  5. Paul Crick

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    As I have said many times, everything begins and ends with a thought, it took one intentional directive through to set up an inner divisional conflict and it takes another intentional directive thought to transform the original one and set us free, yes my aim was always to learn a permanent solution to this sort of problem for self and others, along the way I learnt lots of different things, the majority only created a temporary distraction so they did not complete my search, meditation helped me to connect with the fullness of self, but not by just creating a distraction (think of the breath) like it is normally taught, I had to give the meditation a directive to allow me to move beyond my self imposed limitations so that I could become aware of what actually is, rather than the self imposed perceptions of what is I had created for myself. :)

    This contradicts what you have been putting in your posts, you appear to still need to meditate in order to subdue the endless chatter and find quietness within your mind, that is not a permanent solution at all (I appreciate that this is what you have), it is a get me by or a work around at best, you now have some new knowledge to consider, but it is just head knowledge and will remain that until you choose to put it into practice, then it will become understanding as well as creating a new way of being for you to experience. :)
     
  6. DanielKotzer

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    You gave me a lot to read...:)
    I didn't say I've finished reading and understanding it all... ;)
    Now I'm like a snake that swallowed an elephant...:D I need to digest all that you have written.
    Will take me some time...

    Also I don't understand why you keep saying the effect of meditation is not a permanent solution, you keep saying it's just a workaround. When I said: "After a while you go back to the everyday state, your understanding aspect is back - up and running", I did not mean that you go back to what you were before the meditation, your understanding has to be changed to give context to the new information that has surfaced onto your conscious mind, are you the same as you were before? No you are not, because the conflicts are being resolved now that they have bubbled up and we are aware of them, so why do you say nothing really changed?

    My main point is and was and stayed the same: that the goal of meditation is not focus but awareness, and now I've added that even the meditation object is not there for the purpose of focusing.
     
    #106 DanielKotzer, Feb 16, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2017
  7. Paul Crick

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    As our perceptions of reality can get a little clouded at times, let me transpose this into a real world event, you knock off from doing something to have a relax and enjoy a cup of tea or whatever for a while, you go into a room that is more conducive to relaxation and sit down and start to enjoy your cuppa, you notice that one of your panes of glass in your window has a crack in it, you acknowledge that there is a problem and earmark it for sorting out later on, you then finish your tea have a cat nap and get up feeling refreshed and continue with what you were doing before you had a refreshment break.

    Now how has that resolved the problem of the cracked pane?

    Acknowledging something and doing something about it is two completely different things, like the cracked pane of glass, you have acknowledged it, it is something which requires fixing, you might well come out of the room and get absorbed in something else and completely forget about the cracked pane of glass until you see it again or something else reminds you about it, but it is still there all the same but out of mind, until it is replaced with a different pane of glass it is a problem that requires sorting out. ;)

    Please apply that understanding to your current understanding of meditation and see what you end up with. ;)

    That sounds good, however I think that it is only when we choose to focus our awareness upon something that it can be fully perceived, without a directional focusing intent we just have a jumble of things without any real clarity. :)
     
  8. DanielKotzer

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    As I've said, I need to digest all that you have written, now I need some time to process.

    By the way, you know there are drugs that induce a state of mind that is similar to what you experiencing in meditation - like Ayahuasca and others, they are used by shamans to connect with the spirit world. Some drugs are even used by psychiatrists to induce a state of empathy and acceptance and forgiveness, these drugs are called: Empathogens.

    Wikipedia:
    Empathogens or entactogens are a class of psychoactive drugs that produce experiences of emotional communion, oneness, relatedness, emotional openness—that is, empathy or sympathy—as particularly observed and reported for experiences with 3,4- Methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA).

    The interesting thing is, one chemist that was researching these drugs, says they make you stop focusing and this opens you to experiencing reality to its fullest (just as I described my meditation experience - interesting). here is the link:

    .

    I might be able to find Ayahuasca tea, does anyone have an opinion about having such an experience? can it cause any damage? are there any benefits?
     
  9. Tashanie

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    As a pharmacist my feelings are playing around with MDMA is unwise, unsafe and illegal. Psychoactive chemicals of ANY sort are potentially dangerous
     
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  10. DanielKotzer

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    I'm not talking about taking illegal drugs, or drugs that need a prescription, I was talking specifically about Ayahuasca which as far as I know, is not illegal, and is not causing any health issues.
     
  11. Paul Crick

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    We have a very good imagination if we want to utilise it and virtual reality, not to mention lots of books that are capable of guiding us into alternative realities without resorting to drugs. ;)
     
  12. DanielKotzer

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    As long as you hold on to a belief\world view\perception, or "understanding" as I like to call it, and this understanding is not in line with your experience, then it will be a challenge for you to accept this experience, you will have to adjust your belief/understanding to be in line with what ever you become aware of. Problem is that you show resistance by repressing this experience, and keep it out of your awareness. So how can you ask "Why don't you just accept everything you become aware of?", when the problem is that the suppression mechanism you activate - while desperately holding on to your belief - keeps you unaware of it. Unless you compliantly stop trying to understand the world you are living in, and this looks to my like a defeat, and if you do it, life stops being a learning experience, and you are better of dead. if you want to keep learning, you form understandings, and if they fail, you refine of change them, and if you have unnoticeably repressed something, it will surface when you do meditation, which is like resetting your computer, it gives you a chance to become in line with reality again by suspending your understanding for a while.


    The suppression mechanism does not look to me as just "turning a blind eye at times", it comes out of a passion we have for understanding life and knowing what it is all about. We hate doubt, we hate living in a random and meaningless world, so we crave for a word of truth, that will give life meaning and purpose. this is not a bad thing, but like in every aspect of life, we might look for the easy way instead admitting we have to change something in our belief system. I can not see any thing you can do to resolve this magically.
     
    #112 DanielKotzer, Feb 18, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2017
  13. Paul Crick

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    Yes that is what is supposed to happen, our life experience unfolds and we expand our understanding through being. :)

    Yes the experience we judge and repress is self, we are the experience that we are judging to be wrong, the judgment creates a separate perception to what is, it is 'what actually was' that is being repressed to allow a personal judgmental perception to replace 'what actually was' with a judgmental perceptual belief we have chosen to replace it with, we have created an alternative reality within self.

    The perception of self is now separated from our life experience, it is no longer something which flows with us, it is now judged to see if it is in alignment with our chosen alternative reality, we now have a purpose to prove to self that we are right and what actually was is wrong.

    I see it a little differently to that, our life is our life experience, it just requires us to be, yes we learn new things all of the time, but understanding is not as important as the main main thing which is the life experience itself, it is after all what we are. :)

    My understanding of life is in the last paragraph, I have found that the key to a happy and fulfilled life experience is simply to allow ourselves to be, our life experience is complete within itself, it does not require dissection, judgments, understanding, wisdom, purpose or beliefs, it just requires us to allow ourselves to simply be happy to be.

    Self acceptance healing is not magical or mystical, though the effects are often perceived along those lines when 30 years of inner turmoil is instantly replaced with inner peace and harmony, understanding what the problem is and being able to resolve the problem is often two different things
     
  14. DanielKotzer

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    Certainly, I've felt it myself. Life experience itself, is the biggest pleasure of all, if you let it in without filtering and you are fully aware, colors are 10 times stronger and everything is sharp in full HD, tastes and smells are so powerful - it is the most joyful thing you can experience.

    But without understanding there is no action.

    why?


    Because If you don't decode your experience, by giving it some kind of evaluation, how can you choose how to react to it? whether to embrace it or reject it? If we don't know what it is how can we decide upon a line of action?

    Understanding is simply the first step towards action. If you don't have any intention to act, you need no understanding, but if you do, you must have it.


    None of the Yogi's I have listened to, was ever against action. Osho says, "there is a difference between a 'reaction' and a 'response'" but he was never against action. He said explicitly that meditation is not against action. Meditation has 2 stages, he said, first we learn to stop reacting mindlessly to stimulation, for that we need to stop all action for a while to gain awareness. Stage 2 is going back into doing action, but learn to act without losing awareness, without being distracted by action - action goes on flowing on it's own, and you stay the watcher on the hill - he said.

    Maharishi Mahesh Yogi says it's like going to the bank and back to the market and back to the bank and so on, you energize yourself by meditation, and then go back to activity. These 2 aspects of the self - the 'doer', and the 'knower' - are somehow feeding one another.

    These 2 aspect of self - the aspect that is experiencing, and the aspect that does the understanding followed by action, are both 2 sides of the same coin, and are equally important.

    So I don't know what you mean by saying: "but understanding is not as important as the main main thing which is the life experience itself", I'm not giving up on any one of them - to me they are equally important, down playing one of them is not a way to resolve the inner conflicts.
     
    #114 DanielKotzer, Feb 19, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2017
  15. Paul Crick

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    I have not said that we should not evaluate what we are currently experiencing so that we can choose what if any type of response we wish to implement, but there is a difference between being able to evaluate in an open and non-judgmental way and being forced to react through some pre existing judgmental core beliefs.

    It is all down to choices, choosing to be free to choose in the moment, is a choice; choosing to implement a judgmental belief that will pre-empt our action, is a choice; choosing to do nothing, is a choice, we are making and acting upon thoes choices all of the time. :)

    It is peoples current understanding which is creating their inner divisional conflicts, this is what is directing their general state of health and wellbeing, as well as their life experience to emulate those conflicts, understanding that we have choose to embrace a core way of being that has resulted in an inner divisional conflict, will not in itself heal or resolve the conflict, just acknowledging something does not change it, it just means that we have chosen to place our awareness upon it, we need to choose to act in order to create a change.

    Your chosen medium is meditation, meditation done in a passive receptive way to receive, will allow you to become aware of inner divisional conflicts that require attention, but whilst you choose to stay passive, nothing else can be achieved, you have achieved your stated goal of becoming aware.

    If you wish to do something else whilst meditating, then you will have to set a secondary focus that allows you to move beyond the constraints of just being aware, to move into an active position so that you can now start doing something about it, you have now moved from a passive receptive position into an active doing position, everything begins and ends with a thought, you can utilise your thoughts to achieve more than one goal at the same time. :)
     
  16. DanielKotzer

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    Is there really anything more to be done? besides being aware? What was the problem? Your unwillingness to be aware of something that negates your belief system. Now that you are, what more is there to be done? :confused:
     
  17. Paul Crick

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    All that you can achieve through choosing to perceive something, is to bring it into your awareness, how has that changed anything?

    Can you switch on a light by observing that it is getting dark? Do you not have to perform an action to go and switch the light on, or do your lights come on just by you become aware that it is getting dark??

    Can you quench your thirst simply by becoming aware that you are thirsty?

    Can you respond to this message by simply choosing to be aware that I have posted one???

    You were aware of the conflicts when you created them, but that did not stop them coming into being, how do you think that choosing to once more bring them back into your awareness will transform them now???
     
  18. DanielKotzer

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    Paul, if you could define/describe in details what this transformation is, and explain in details what exactly happens during this transformation, I might get to the bottom of what you mean.

    And why do you think this transformation has to happen while you are in the meditative state? Why do you say that when I get to the meditative state using the meditation object, now is the time to catch the moment, and set another attention to resolve the conflicts, can't it be done after the meditation, while you gain back your normal state of consciousness again?
     
    #118 DanielKotzer, Feb 20, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2017
  19. Paul Crick

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    To heal an inner divisional conflict requires us to transform the original division that we created within self into wholeness, we do that in an active manner, we firstly need to be ready to change, then we have to acknowledge the conflict which we want to heal and replace the judgment which caused the division with acceptance, division can only divide, acceptance will make whole.

    It does not have to, meditation is something you practice to allow you to move beyond the constraints that you have placed upon self, so it is a medium which you can choose to utilise to heal the divisional conflicts once they come clearly into focus, personally I understand the process of change so I just do it, I can reprogram myself at will, which enables me to help others as long as they are happy to embrace change. :)

    I don't say that, what I say is that you can utilise your meditative state to become aware of the divisional conflicts that give you unrest, but you do not set your attention to resolve the conflicts, you utilise your intention to set up a new intentional directive to replace the original intentional directive which created it.

    Yes it can be done outside of a meditation, the meditation just allows you to communicate in a more direct and focused way with the fullness of self, once you are out of the meditative state, your conflicts are coming back into play together with the judgmental perceptions that drive the unrest, your focus has now changed back from singular to divisive, you now have to argue with the conflict to try and assert a new intentional directive to replace it.
     
  20. Tashanie

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    I understand totally what you mean by the 2 aspects of self.. But sometimes the observer/understanding aspect can see that no action is needed....unless you count just being as action. I DO get totally what Paul means. Unless you fully experience life, you cannot understand them...but without the life experience there is nothing to understand. It all starts with the life experience
     
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